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Lysa
Member



Joined: 2008/10/25
Posts: 3403
This world is not my home anymore.

 Re:

Quote:
Heydave wrote:
The context of the scripture is the Pharisees asked for a sign. Jesus' response was as I undertsand it to state a general rule. "A evil and sinful generation seeks after a sign". The fact He said generation seems to make it much wider than just the Pharisees. Just to go after signs and not the Lord Himself is shallow imo.


The sad state of affairs is that anytime someone mentions that they believe in signs and wonders, the non-believers (in signs) always say that we are only ‘going after signs and not the Lord himself.’ Why is that when Jesus clearly did these things?

Just because people who have misused miracles and healing does not negate the fact that we are still to have signs following us (Christians). Signs following us, our ministry, and our words, etc.

Mark 16:17-18 states that “these signs shall follow them that believe;
1) In my name shall they cast out devils;
2) they shall speak with new tongues;
3) They shall take up serpents;
4) and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them;
5) they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

Verse 19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God. 20 And they went forth, and preached every where, THE LORD WORKING WITH THEM, AND CONFIRMING THE WORD WITH SIGNS FOLLOWING. Amen.

Again, it’s usually the non-signs crowd that tries to disavow these verses aren’t in a certain text. So what? It’s in the other texts and the preceding verses are just like what Christ did during His life. And He did state that He has given us (you and me) all power OVER the power of THE ENEMY.

Why isn’t the Church daring to do what Jesus did?


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Lisa

 2015/1/16 9:39Profile
Lysa
Member



Joined: 2008/10/25
Posts: 3403
This world is not my home anymore.

 Re: Heydave

Quote:
Heydave wrote:
Do the signs (miracles) follow the word to confirm it or are they publicity that acts as an attraction to the flesh?


I’m sure there were folks like you there, when Jesus had to get into the boat there were so many people, possibly saying, “Look at this publicity stunt. He only did this to attract flesh.” LOL Nothing new is found under the sun!

Read what Jesus did here...
Matthew 4: 19-21 And he saith unto them, Follow me, and I will make you fishers of men. And they straightway left their nets, and followed him. And going on from thence, he saw other two brethren, James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother, in a ship with Zebedee their father, mending their nets; and he called them. And they immediately left the ship and their father, and followed him.

23 And Jesus went about ALL GALILEE, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all manner of sickness and all manner of disease among the people.

24 And his fame went throughout all Syria: and they BROUGHT TO HIM all sick people that were taken with divers diseases and torments, and those which were possessed with devils, and those which were lunatick, and those that had the palsy; and he healed them.

25 And there followed him great multitudes of people from Galilee, and from Decapolis, and from Jerusalem, and from Judaea, and from beyond Jordan.

Matthew 10.1 And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease.

Where in the Bible does it state that what He gave His disciples then stopped and not one of His disciples today are supposed to walk in that?

God bless,
Lisa


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Lisa

 2015/1/16 9:42Profile
Heydave
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Joined: 2008/4/12
Posts: 1306
Hampshire, UK

 Re:

Lysa,

Your too quick to jump to conclusions. Just because I questioned the over emphasis on miracles for evangelism does not mean I am a cessationist or as you put it and unbeliever in signs. I do believe ALl the gifts are still available today when God decides to move in this way.

However if we are honest (and most aren't) much of what we see today in the western church are not the genuine gifts. You are very bold to declare you have the same power and authority to operate in the same gifts as the Apostles, so can you confirm when you last raised the dead, gave sight to the blind or raised up a lifelong cripple. Or have you even seen these type of instant miracles. I have been around Charismatic churches and so called healing meetings for much of the last 30 years and I can honestly say I have never seen this type of miracle. Yes I have seen and know of folk that were healed of minor ailments, but nothing on this level of miracle. I know folk who have recovered from major diseases over time after being prayed for, but we are talking here of a miracle sign where healing is instant like the Apostles and Christ.

I am not in unbelief that God can and does move in these gifts, but I don't see this and folk who think they should be doing these signs end up trying to produce something in their own strength (even if they are good intentioned) and the result is a bad testimony because they claim to give something they don't have or produce.

Where does that leave the gospel message when you claim the God who will save you from sin will also deliver you from sickness and then they are not healed? If you were wrong about that then maybe you are wrong about salvation would be the logical thought process. Of course the healing evangelist always has an answer such as 'you need to hold on in faith' or the 'manifestation will come later' or 'if the symptoms come back it's just the devil trying to steal your healing'. Funny we don't read any of those excuses in the bible.


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Dave

 2015/1/16 10:14Profile
Lysa
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Joined: 2008/10/25
Posts: 3403
This world is not my home anymore.

 Re:


Heydave,

I apologize brother, by the way you were writing, I thought you didn’t believe in the gifts for today.

And I can see that we have been talking about entirely two different things throughout this thread. Never once have I had in mind ‘healing evangelists’ while I’ve been talking to you in this thread but I can see that they have been in the forefront of your mind. Not that that's bad but we've just not been on the same wavelength.

I can’t help what others have done to taint the gift of healing, I am speaking purely of what the Scripture says that is available to us as the disciples of Christ. I would rather believe that than keep my eyes on men and their failures.

Brother, nowhere in my posts have I declared “I” got it but I can assure you that "I" definitely believe it’s there to be had for those who are willing to pay the price of a devoted life.

And yes, I have seen miracles, signs and wonders and none of them have been on TV. I've seen here a little, there a little and it has encouraged me to keep pressing on and keep my eyes on Him.

God bless, Dave
Lisa


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Lisa

 2015/1/16 10:41Profile
Oracio
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Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2039
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

Quote:
I am asking the question why Jesus and the apostles didn't do things always in the same way.

Jesus healed some people with 'mud', some with laying of hands, some with a word, some on distance, etc.
Jesus drove out demons with one sentence, sometimes asking there name (one time), etc.

I see the same things with the proclamation of the gospel. He shares the 'good news' in different ways, different 'methods' I don't like the word), etc.

The same did the apostles. If you look at the gospel the apostles preach in the book of Acts, you say everything is different every time.

I believe we can learn from this that we shouldn't do a "copy" of anyone, even ourselves. Do what the Lords ask you to do, say what He wants you to speak, and be free.

For me, I always was scared and depressed because I couldn't do what some other brothers did concerning evangelism. That was until God showed me that I am not those brothers, but I the Lord created me like I am. So now I try to just do His will. One of those things is streetpreaching in our town. I am not special, but I just share what the Lords gives me. Sometimes it is the law in which I am preaching Christ. Another time it's judgement. The other time it is Christ' love. Another time it is the need of the people. Mostly it is a mix. But I do it because I believe the Lord called me for this.

Just do what the Lord calls you to do and read scripture with a prayer to get understanding.



Thank you wijnand for that post, I agree with probably most if not all of it(depending on whether or not I understood it all correctly :).

My concern recently is with a certain sentiment I've perceived here; a sentiment which says something along the lines of, "Street evangelism as we've come to know it (e.g. handing out tracts, intentionally sharing the gospel with strangers on the streets, street preaching) has not been working. Maybe we need to rethink it and do something much different." It's a sentiment that seems to downplay the types of street evangelism that many of us seek to continue to do faithfully unto the Lord.

My understanding from God's Word and from history is that upfront, bold evangelism has always been the way God has mostly gotten His message out. There are tons of scriptures and examples of this both in the Word and history.

I do not see any examples of God's servants waiting to build relationships over a long period of time in order to feel they have earned the right to share the gospel with them, or just letting our lives speak to unbelievers without verbal proclamation. That to me seems like a highly unbiblical method.


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Oracio

 2015/1/16 11:12Profile
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Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5415
NC, USA

 Re:

I think the street preacher has to balance the harm vs potential good. How many have been hopelessly turned off to Christianity by militant street preaching?

I guess that is a major concern I have because it seems harm may outweigh the good. Of course I have no way of knowing this for certain.

And to clarify--- I do not think a clear exposition of the word will ever do harm, but the method might.


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Todd

 2015/1/16 11:58Profile
Oracio
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Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2039
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

I also forgot to mention in my last post the concern with the idea that miracles are needful for effective evangelism. That is simply not taught in God's Word. We see many examples of the pure preaching of the Word being used to bring about the necessary conviction of sin and repentance and faith.


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Oracio

 2015/1/16 12:01Profile
Oracio
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Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2039
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

Quote:
I think the street preacher has to balance the harm vs potential good. How many have been hopelessly turned off to Christianity by militant street preaching?

I guess that is a major concern I have because it seems harm may outweigh the good. Of course I have no way of knowing this for certain.

And to clarify--- I do not think a clear exposition of the word will ever do harm, but the method might.


I understand your concern and it is a very valid one. But if you consider the kind of street preaching that is usually harmful it is usually done by those who like to use large placards or banners and upper attire with big bold wording on it. I think of street preachers like Fred Phelps and co and a street preacher named Ruben Israel who got mobbed by Muslims a few years ago as he carried a pig's head on a stick at a Muslim festival. That's not to say I'm completely against using banners and such, but simply to say it's not necessary and we can't say it's patterned after anything we see in the Word.

What is definitely patterned and interwoven throughout the Word is the public proclamation of God's Word. Today there are many faithful, solidly biblical, compassionate street preachers out there and we cannot paint a broad brush over all street preaching. It is unfair.


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Oracio

 2015/1/16 12:17Profile
Oracio
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Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2039
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

The thought came to mind that the reason you don't hear much about the good examples of street preachers out there is because the media likes to highlight the bad examples. The media is not concerned with the good examples. The bad street preachers relish in and thrive on getting the attention of the media. They think they are being effective if they make the news. But again, we cannot allow that to cause us to downplay true biblical street preaching.


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Oracio

 2015/1/16 12:24Profile
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Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5415
NC, USA

 Re:

Agreed, which is why I said method matters.


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Todd

 2015/1/16 12:38Profile





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