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 Re:

Quote:
God has always had his witnesses in the last 2000 years that have stood outside of the prevailing systems



Who are these people brother? By your standard you are disclosing all groups that are organized with official leaders and structure or any sort of ecclesiastical order or order of service. In all my reading of Church history I simply do not find men such as yourself as God's standard of those who are truly doing what He wants outside all systems.

SermonIndex itself has order, has community rules, and moderator leadership. Roads have order (2 lanes), the Lord has order in the Churches. I do agree God has always had a witness in the earth but it has not been outside structure or denominations as such. God's remnant groups have been seperate at times but in spirit they exhibited John 17, men have always called every group that was seperate unto the Lord by a Name and even in the book of Acts the assemblies in their day were called many names.


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SI Moderator - Greg Gordon

 2014/10/3 10:28Profile
MaryJane
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Joined: 2006/7/31
Posts: 3057


 Re:

Jesus is at the door sister. The Bridegroom is coming for His Bride. There is a prophetic calendar. The prevailing attitude of those who worshiped in the temple was that God would never allow anything to happen to the temple which had been around for over 1000 years. Yet God no longer resided in the temple and not one stone was left unturned in that day of judgement.

God has always had his witnesses in the last 2000 years that have stood outside of the prevailing systems. One last point sister, my post does not compel people to leave anything, it merely points out the division between religion and the people of God. It speaks to the fact that divisions and denominations and identifications of anything other than being brothers and sisters in Christ is not Biblical. God has called His Body to unity, to be one body, one spirit , one mind. Jesus prophesied in John 17 that the body would be one as He and the Father were one so that the world would know that He had been sent from His Father, so that we, the Body, by our unity, would be a witness to a world that shall soon be judged. This is our high calling from our High Priest. Everything else, I would argue, is a rationalization of our present state.........bro Frank

__________

Again a hearty amen from me! One body with CHRIST as the HEAD!!!

God bless
maryjane

 2014/10/3 10:39Profile
Oracio
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Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2094
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

I thought I'd share why I may seem a bit strong in my stance against this so-called "IC" vs "anti-IC" debate. It's because I feel I was deceived when I was caught up in the anti-IC stance.

It is very easy these days to come across many different resources online that rail against the so called "IC". Those resources come from different sources that range from being flat out heretical to within biblical Christianity. But a common thread in many seems to be this disillusionment with and disgruntled attitude toward all established denominations and churches.

If one is not careful it can be easy to develop an unhealthy "come out", "remnant", elitist mindset which can be a huge hindrance to one's walk and cause one to be a lone ranger Christian unnecessarily.


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Oracio

 2014/10/3 11:06Profile
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What I have seen is "anger, bitterness and unforgivenness" in many who are "out of church" because of past hurts and wrong leadership. Agreed brother Oracio thank you for being honest and sharing your testimony in this regard.

I have counselled and talked with brethren who it was very obvious they were deceived in a measure in this direction and could not accept anyone except a few saints from the past and a few assemblies the rest were declared to have no lampstands or testimony of the Lord. Such thinking makes the way more narrow then our Lord did and has no mercy on existing assemblies where our Lord's testimony to the Laoadicean church itself was one of love and mercy, desiring them to be in the better place of relationship with Him and not trusting in their own strength.

My thought was I could be just like these individuals I was speaking to and be hurting others in IC settings speaking against their churches harshly if it were not the grace of God in my life. I have been in enough situations of abusive leadership that I could carry bitterness, hurts, etc, but by God's grace I have been able to give them to the Lord and not hold onto them.

Yielding in one's spirit and not always desiring to be right is a mark of the Spirit of God, unyielding, standing for one's rights, standing alone against all of christendom usually is a place of great spiritual peril and pride and not a healthy standing for truth. The Lord alone can keep God's Church and saints in balance and a place of allowing Him to divide the wheat from the chaff, and submitting to leaders that He puts in place in the body of Christ.


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SI Moderator - Greg Gordon

 2014/10/3 11:31Profile









 Re:

Hi bro Greg,

I do not believe you have ever really been able to grasp what I have been saying about organization and leadership and it may be that you simply will not get where I am coming from and that is fine, I can certainly leave it at that.

For three hundred years brothers and sisters gathered in fellowships in their homes. There was leadership and discipline according to the word of God and to the Spirit. Then, truly the first ecclesiastical system was built whose foundation was Constantine and Rome. This dominated almost the entire " Christian," world. There were groups who stood against them, starting with the " Donatists." " Ah ha," you say, they had a name and met together and had leaders, they had organization therefore they are what you argue against. You might say that brother, but if you did , you would be wrong. They had no name other than Christian and brothers and sisters. It was their enemies that gave them a name. The Brethren movement that goes back almost 1700 years ( not the Plymouth brethren who are well documented and who themselves did not take on a name) This ancient Brethren group merely called each other brothers and sisters and stood in rebellion and opposition to the Catholic Church.

The Waldenses can also be traced back at least 1700 years, some say right back to the Apostles, but again they had no name other than Christ. This name was given to them by their enemies. They merely referred to each other as brother or sister in Christ. You state that their were named " churches in the book of Acts, there was not. They were merely referred to by their geographical location. For instance the church that is in Rome. Or the church that is in Colosse and so on. There is not a single reference to " churches," plural in the NT in regard to towns or cities, only regions, like Asia and so on.

Now all of those local Christians that gathered in fellowship and down through their rebellion against the ecclesiastical order or system had leadership. They had some apostles, some pastors some prophets and some teachers and so on as chosen by the Holy Spirit who gives out these gifts and callings in the first place. God has never left nor forsaken his children gathered. God calls on us to gather as HIs children and all the more as we see that day approach. In every town and in every city God has His children and I have always encouraged the saints to gather. You will not find any post from me where I have encouraged people to leave wherever they are attending right now. We are Gods servants and He must do the calling. Now, it may be difficult but our walk was never intended to easy and is not for the faint of heart. This is why in the book of Revelation the promises are made to those who overcome, to those who endure till the end. So, follow God, follow His word, follow the Spirit in everything you do and never compromise that. Better to follow God than to follow and rely upon the traditions of men. One will let you down, the other will not................bro Frank

 2014/10/3 11:34
Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2094
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

Quote:
You will not find any post from me where I have encouraged people to leave wherever they are attending right now.



Brother, the whole tenor of many of your past posts here have given that kind of impression.

For example, the following quote from you is from this thread:
https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=29255&forum=35&start=10&viewmode=flat&order=1
Quote:
Who are the remnant? Well, they are the Church, not to be mistaken for the established church. God is calling His people, His remnant, from all over the world which includes the established church to come out.



And this is a post on your blog:

God Is Calling His Remnant Out of the Established Church:
http://acalltotheremnant.com/2009/07/30/god-is-calling-his-remnant-out-of-the-established-church/

Brother, it seems very clear that you oppose all established and organized denominations and churches. When you start threads on this forum with titles like the one on this thread, it comes across as very divisive especially to those of us who fellowship in certain established churches or denominations. Can you see how that can come across as divisive or offensive to many brethren?


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Oracio

 2014/10/3 12:57Profile









 Re:

Oracio writes about my tenor and the way that my comments come across. Lets make a deal Oracio, I will not guess what is in your heart and you do me the same favor. Let us stick to what we write.

"Can you see how that can come across as divisive or offensive to many brethren?"

Yes brother, I can see how it may come across. Should I stay silent as to what the Lord has laid on my heart because of how it may come across? Would you brother?

Is you own stance on this subject not divisive to the ones who disagree with you? You see how strange this could become if what we write is based on anything other than speaking the truth in love and not judging what is in a brothers heart. I am not the one who has used such words as " bitterness, elitist flesh, pride, factionist," and so on. These would not be the words I would choose to use against anyone who simply disagreed with my interpretation of Scripture and what the Word of God means when it talks about unity and the Body of Christ.

I could actually argue Oracio, that the people who use those words are the angry divisive ones. But I will not go down that path. Let us study each others words and take us at our words and let the judging of hearts be left to God alone.

On my website, I have almost 650 articles I have written. If any man or woman wants to see where I am coming from, I am an open book, one who speaks what is on his heart clearly. I have never hidden behind passive aggression and I believe in total transperancy. This has not always endeared me to many but even my detractors who know me would acknowledge that I am a plain speaking brother. Now let me bless you brother Oracio as you go about your business today and may the love of God reign in our hearts as we discuss, what I believe to be, the pressing issue of our time and in fact an ancient issue. Your brother in Christ..............bro Frank

 2014/10/3 13:40
ADisciple
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Joined: 2007/2/3
Posts: 835
Alberta, Canada

 Re:

My brother is an expert builder, and years ago he helped me build a garage. We put up the walls and it was time to put on the roof. He built the first truss, which he said would be the template for the rest, and instructed me to build 12 more just like it. Then he left to pick up some more building materials. I got started, building the second one patterned after the first. But since the first one was a little difficult to get at now, I built the third one using the second one as a pattern. Then I built the fourth one patterned after the third. And the fifth one patterned after the fourth... and so on. I finished them all and was standing back admiring my work when my brother came back, got out his tape measure, did some measuring, shook his head, looked at me, and sighed.

Brothers and sisters who insist that denominationalism is acceptable Church order, that lots of churches are patterned that way and God is okay with it... what are you using for your pattern? Please go to the original Template. You simply cannot find denominationalism there.


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Allan Halton

 2014/10/3 14:07Profile
Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2094
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

brother Frank writes:

Quote:
Is you own stance on this subject not divisive to the ones who disagree with you?


Brother, for me to take a strong stance against unnecessary divisions over non-essentials is different than siding strongly or adamantly with a particular non-essential issue to the point of being divisive over that particular issue.

For example, what I've been trying to do here is like me saying, "Let's stop dividing so much over Calvinism vs. Arminianism, Pre-Trib vs. Post-Trib, Continuationism vs. Cessationism, etc." That's how I see this division over IC vs anti-IC, it's a non-essential issue over which there should be respectful disagreement.

I saw it as if someone were to post a thread with the title, "Death by Speaking in Tongues", or "Death by Arminianism (or Calvinism)", or "Death by the Pre-Trib view", etc.

In any case brother, I sincerely thank you for wishing me that blessing. May the Lord bless you mightily also. And may we be able to lovingly, graciously, respectfully agree to disagree on this and other non-essentials and proceed in devotion to Christ.


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Oracio

 2014/10/3 14:11Profile









 Re:

Bro Allan writes........

" Please go to the original Template. You simply cannot find denominationalism there."

I am not sure it gets any simpler or profound than that. Scripture must be our guide, not the traditions of men...........bro Frank

 2014/10/3 14:11





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