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 Re:

Brother Greg,

You keep making emphatic statements and when I give the quote to disprove your assertions, you never bother to redress the statements that you made that were simply wrong. I am not sure what to do with this.

"Tozer would not agree with you on leadership, structure, and things of that nature. He saw value and requirement in leadership in the Church of Jesus Christ."

Brother, I have lost count the number of times I have told you my opinion on leadership, yet you continue to bear me false witness on this, I really must ask you not to, unless you can quote me saying otherwise( which you cannot)I value Spirit filled and led leadership above all else not the traditions of men. In this thread I have quoted the Scripture about healthy leadership where God gave some apostles, some prophets , some evangelists, some teachers and pastors and so on. This is the word of God.

You write........

""evangelical" and "Denominations" would be the same term, the term evangelicals would category many denominations that fall under that category. And again it is not that the structure of them was wrong but that the life in them was waning and in some cases departed."

Now you have completely lost me. Just two posts ago you wrote this......

"To be more exact in responding to what you wrote about my response to Tozer is that he did not ask people to leave all "systems" but to leave evangelicalism to be a part of a new group that was more healthy. So there you have it, he did not preach against the evils of anyone who is in a denomination"

Perhaps you should more clearly try and explain yourself for the benefit of others reading this. You separated out evangelicals and denominations to try and water down what Tozer was saying and when I gave you the full quote where Tozer was very specific, you now want to say that the terms evangelical and denominations are synonyms. This seems to me pretzel like logic, much tortured twistings and turnings and no consistency in order to hold onto an original premise that denominationalism is healthy and perfectly in line with Scripture, which of course it is not........bro Frank

 2014/10/4 14:00









 Re:

Greg write to Allan and says........

"That is much different then saying point blank that ALL are wrong unless they leave man-made (or so called) denominations and simply declare themselves Jesus Christ's. That is an over simplification, it goes against how true brethren have formed into testimonies of the Lord throughout the 2000 years of church history."

No one said all are wrong unless they leave anything. These are your words Greg. What has been pointed out is the original template and the question that has been asked is....
"Is denominationalism found in Scriptures. The answer? No.

Do we find sectarianism in the book in the NT? Yes we do and in 1 Cor 3 it is roundly condemned and taught that is is the essence of carnality. Now, this is what Scripture says. How does that translate into what we see today? One must ask themselves that question and then be led by the Word of God not by the traditions of men which is denominationalism............bro Frank

 2014/10/4 14:07
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 Re:

Quote:
Brother, I have lost count the number of times I have told you my opinion on leadership, yet you continue to bear me false witness on this, I really must ask you not to, unless you can quote me saying otherwise( which you cannot)I value Spirit filled and led leadership above all else not the traditions of men. In this thread I have quoted the Scripture about healthy leadership where God gave some apostles, some prophets , some evangelists, some teachers and pastors and so on. This is the word of God.



Again Tozer was a part of a denomination: Christian Missionary Allance. And all their churches had 1 pastor who was over the church as Tozer was one over his in Chicago and Toronto. Your interpretation strictly on leadership in the church would differ from Tozer's, that is just fact. I could take the middle ground between a view of plural leadership under a 5 fold ministry and the 1 pastor model.

Quote:
Perhaps you should more clearly try and explain yourself for the benefit of others reading this. You separated out evangelicals and denominations to try and water down what Tozer was saying and when I gave you the full quote where Tozer was very specific, you now want to say that the terms evangelical and denominations are synonyms. This seems to me pretzel like logic



Tozer did not see the system or denomination as unheathly unless it was apostate (meaning) the life of God was not in the group or sect. That is a world of difference between what you are saying brother to leave all systems of men (as you call them). Tozer did not call for that as much as you would like him to, he was calling for a leaving an establishing of a conservative, biblical, structured group that would look possibly in part like a denomination that was already existing but the proper life in it.

Tozer called people to possibly have to leave a dying Western Christianity because of the fact it was dying spiritually, not because it was all wrong in the way leadership or structure worked.

Tozer and others did always see the body of christ universal was spiritual and they accepted that and always sought fellowship along those lines as all true christians have and continue to do, no matter what part of the world, region or group we associate with.

Quote:
"original premise that denominationalism is healthy and perfectly in line with Scripture"



I would not agree that I said that implicitly, as I posted part of what I wrote from the Principles volume that there is an unhealthiness to division in the body of Christ and that by virtue of being in the world the Lord allows His people to gather in different ways and the mature saint looks for fellowship of true brethren no matter what shirt they wear or context they appear in. I lean more on the side of contending and encouraging saints to look away from that one doctrine that can become an idol in a denomination and seek general unity of the body of Christ. That does not necessitate the leaving of denominations, for as I alluded to many of the denominations started off as MOST do with the goal and desire to be apostolic and they were or still are except for the lessening of the presence of God in their midst and trusting in the Lord and not men. Wineskins become old and crack.

I hope that is clear as anything I wrote. I have no agenda and am simply sharing my heart concern towards saints who would speak against all the work of God (through men) in the 2000 years of the Church. And to rightly share some facts towards any movement that you held up as a model for what you are expousing needs to happen. As I shared earlier Waldensians, Moravians or any "remnant" or brethren group had structured leadership that in many cases had 1 shepherd or pastor over the little flock of God.





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SI Moderator - Greg Gordon

 2014/10/4 14:22Profile
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 Re:

Quote:
the traditions of men which is denominationalism............bro Frank



So every single denomination of the 30,000 currently are all traditions of men? Was this always so when there were hundreds and thousands of specific dissenting groups during the reformation time?


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SI Moderator - Greg Gordon

 2014/10/4 14:24Profile
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 Re:

Greg said, "My clarification to you brother is that that is much different then saying that all denominations are wrong and bad and finally now after 2000 years the Church will finally get it and meet apart from all structure, and leadership as it has been for 2000 years. I do not see that as healthy or right."

As I said, it is the very principle of denominationalism that is wrong. This is not the way God intended the Church of Jesus Christ to be. And it is certainly true that in the last day He will have His Church the way He wants her to be, though it will mean great shakings in the process.

You also said, "My concern and heart for brethren who have no fellowship, are not able to agree with all existing denominations, that they would check their hearts towards submission to authority in their lives. You simply do not see the call for brethren to be separate and accountable to God alone not paying heed to any man ever."

Dear brother, please be careful about this. Do you know the anguish of brothers and sisters who are accused of being rebellous and unwilling to submit to leadership, when what actually happened is that they could no longer hear the Voice of their Shepherd in the leadership they were under?

You also said, "There is a dangerous pride and spiritual elitism to think that ALL saints including all the speakers on SermonIndex really did not see God's best and in the end times God is going to really show the Church how to be the Church, such thinking was in the latter-rain movement that caused much hurt to the true body of Christ..."

I am disappointed that you would make a statement like that.


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Allan Halton

 2014/10/4 14:31Profile









 Re:

Greg, you have now stated this three times in an effort to shore up a position that cannot be shored up......

"Again Tozer was a part of a denomination: Christian Missionary Allance."

You might want to check your facts again brother. Tozer was not part of a denomination, he had no time for them, would not even deem to mention them in his prophecy against the other groups that he did mention.

Christian Missionary Alliance only became a " denomination" in 1974. It was founded and had always been a missionary gathering and in fact they did not even call there gatherings " churches," but instead used the term " branches." ...............bro Frank

 2014/10/4 14:55









 Re:

Greg writes..........

"So every single denomination of the 30,000 currently are all traditions of men? Was this always so when there were hundreds and thousands of specific dissenting groups during the reformation time?

When men follow their own designs and deem that they are wiser than the Scriptures in matters of gathering then it indeed qualifies itself to be called " traditions of men." The ancient brethren and so called waldenses only considered themselves brothers and sisters. They did not " denominate." They were simply brothers and sisters and as bro Allan pointed out their common denominator was Jesus and the Word of God and not a specific theology or tradition such as "Calvanism."............bro Frank

 2014/10/4 15:06









 Re:

talk about beating a dead horse

 2014/10/4 15:07
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 Re:

I am going to stop here in this thread brother after making myself very clear. I disagree with your view of the Alliance church not having "Churches" or considering themselves as such. It was a highly structured organized network of churches planting other churches with the main goal of the great commission as the reason for their aligning together.

I have changed and grown in my view of the Lord's Church and I pray I will continue to follow the Lamb of God and His voice. I trust we can all guard against stubbornness, unyieldingness, having submission to others in our lives.

In this thread I spoke from a small "s" shepherds heart of concern over these things. As a moderator due to the fact that we do not encourage saints to continue to post their own writings or continue to promote any specific one doctrine or idea over and over again. Thus I have felt the necessity to bring a balance to some of the thoughts here.

I appreciate you considering and other brethren anything I shared, I submit it in the name of our Lord and in His love for the body with all my flaws of this clay vessel.


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 2014/10/4 15:12Profile
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 Re:

Greg, going back to your comment about it being "dangerous pride and spiritual elitism to think that ALL saints including all the speakers on SermonIndex really did not see God's best and in the end times God is going to really show the Church how to be the Church..." I really don't know who holds that position-- that ALL saints etc did not see God's best. Many saints throughout the ages have held this hope-- that God will yet have a "glorious church without spot or wrinkle or blemish or any such thing." We don't see this glorious church yet, but God will yet have this, and it is not elitism to anticipate it. God will yet vindicate the words of the apostle Paul. He will yet answer the prayer of His Son in John Ch. 17.

You said in your last post, "I have changed and grown in my view of the Lord's Church and I pray I will continue to follow the Lamb of God and His voice. I trust we can all guard against stubbornness, unyieldingness, having submission to others in our lives."

I am in full agreement with you on this one, Greg. I appreciate your humility, and want to put up the same guard.

And I do believe you love the body of Christ. I do too, and I pray that we may continue to grow in grace together.

With that, like yourself, I feel I have said all I can say on this thread.


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Allan Halton

 2014/10/4 16:14Profile





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