I have much to say in response to your post....but I have to get outside and work....not just winging a post back.

i'm going to foresee this hugepile of dry wood, still outside my window....WET.....and that will make me very sad and grief-stricken....i'm sure a northern tier lad like yourself understands my quandary.

on thing though: "strong leadership" ...only One, Jesus.

much love, neil

HezWelling, you are not alone in your journey. All I know is that Jesus only is Trustworthy.

Have you discovered T.A. Sparks writings? They are free on the internet. Just good readings to add to your library.

I wholeheartedly see where you are the only thing I know to say is... this process is allowing Jesus to work something out in you. For me it has been all about trusting Him with everything... all of the everyday, mundane things and the visions/burdens. Of only landing on Christ. I have gone through where my "God given vision" of the body became my idol and I wasn't truly landing on Jesus Only anymore. My "burden" was so real and strong it eventually became my idol and actually took my eyes off of Jesus only and His message of love. I started once again to bring God down to my level to bring Him down to earthly ways instead of allowing Him to bring me up to His ways. And His ways are way beyond my comprehension, so I can only live in the moment of everyday and walk in love, which is hard to do on my own. Only the revelation of Jesus to my soul will allow this to truly happen.

Yes, we do have a responsibility to gather/disciple, but what does this really look like? It can present itself it so, so, so many ways. Why are we so focused on "meetings" and "storefronts" and "locations?" I can safely admit now that I have no earthly idea of what it means to be the body other than loving Jesus and loving people. I would never try to put guidelines on this... Holy Spirit led people loving Jesus Only and His people.

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Tina

Thank you for your kind words, Neil, and be encouraged dear brother! Your passion is often a reminder for me to find that yearning in my heart again when I have been wandering and weighed down by the cares of this world.
But when we carry pain and near despair in our hearts for no other reason than our unfulfilled desire for more of God Himself, His Kingdom and His Glory, it is a precious thing to the Lord!

A man who cries bitter tears because the Lord's holy name is not honored among those declaring to be His people or because of his soul's yearning for God's presence is like a major air strike on enemy territory. Booom! Take that devil! It makes a statement in the spiritual realm, declaring the Lord worthy above all. Hallelujah.

So let us not get tired of allowing the Lord to place burdens and hardship upon us for His sake. There are few who understand that He does this incredible thing of staking His reputation on us. We can let Him down and turn away because it is more than what we are willing to give, or we can endure and stand firm for Him. The enemy will either have to declare the Lord worthy or taunt Him that even His very own do not value Him above all and will abandon Him.

In Deuteronomy 32:27 God declares that he dreads the taunt of the adversary who misinterprets and states lies about Him. When we meditate on that passage and how it applies to the above, it reveals God's heart. So in the remnant church, I believe you will find men and women and young people to whom these things apply.

Your sister in Christ,
Lotti

Heavenly words on the Lord's day, so anointed, they lift my sagging shoulders.

I been in Acts this morning, I went out of Isaiah, where I was in Chapter 60....I felt it right to go to Acts,based upon my question.

the thing I want to forward, usage of the word "remnant" is right, although the Seventh Day Adventist seem to have appropriated it.

Obviously WORDS or NAMES are important, they contain power, in that they frame, the onus of the idea behind the words.

my hesitation is that this word "remnant" contains an element of "more than", an implicit "superiority" in this Most Holy Faith.

I submit going BACK, before 315 AD, when this Most Holy Faith, be called what it once was, "The Way"....."Christian" was based on the pejorative Latin, "chrestus"......even romanists or greek othrodox call themselves Christian...."crusaders", a bloody bunch are known as Christians....I am NOT saying get rid of this name, but to me, it has so much ill baggage attached.

that's just me though, much love in Christ, neil

you wrote:

here's a thin tome, that I love:

"Life Together"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_Together

Greetings All

Please forgive my reply if it is not inline with what the question poses. I'm not really that educated in the words that have been stated or familiar with past church history on the subject.

In light of what i have said, i sensed a liking around this post and it reminds me of a group i started last year on the streets. at first it was my intention to start the group and teach people on the streets, what the bible is about and how to read it for themselves. I just wanted people to see the truth. I planned the first group brought all the materials for the group to study through. i was nervious but all set to be a part of a ministry. the first night went really really bad. the people that turned up, where very dysfunctional, drunk, on drugs, two men kept kissing each other in the meeting but we did get to know each other and set some boundries.

the next meeting, was more settled and everyone kind of listened to the study but it was more about everyone greeting the same faces again. Unfortunatley while i was praying in the back room a man drove up to the members drunk and abused the group and my wife in a vile manner and i moved straight into my flesh nature and punched the man to the ground. i was so embarresed and upset about this and went home questioning my ability to do this.

the third meeting, one of the men at the last meeting came up to me and said that he had given his heart to christ durring the week and said that when he saw me fall in my weakness and then give it to christ, he said that he knew then that God can forgive him for the evils he done.(i didn't expect that. one of the men that was kissing the other man in the first week was in tears as i explained the destruction of sin. the group was seeming to grow in thier own gifts as well and a unity started to build.

the fourth meeting, i decided not to plan anything and just move as the holy spirit led me. this night everyone wanted to pray and the most amazing thing happened as we prayed. as each person said what they wanted pray for i heard the holy spirit say to me, this person needs this and beofre i could step up and do it, one of the members did exactly what i was supose to do but they didn't know this. it happened 4 times in a row.

over the course of these group meetings i learn't so much about the dangers of control and seen some real growth amongst the members. As the church found out what was happening in our group they decided they didnt want the group in their building. things stopped.

When analyse the churches i have been apart of through the years, i can say that out of them only 2 ever let the congregations gifts come through in the meetings. to rely totally on the holy spirit and not on my own talents was hard for me at that stage but God wanted to stair the ship and all i did was yank the wheel and stair it of course.

sorry for the long post it was on my heart.

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karl rashleigh

I have been thinking about this thread and praying about these matters and would like to share something here.

We know that the church is not a building but a Body of believers worldwide. But we are discussing here not just of Christian work in general but of the church as the church, the organized church. As has been already mentioned there are several forms for this organization given in the Bible; formation of local churches, elders and deacons, church discipline, qualifications for office, and so on. These are forms commanded by God.

But there are also large areas that are left free. There are forms and there are also freedoms. Not getting bogged down in details, I think we can agree that there is place for the organized church maintained by the forms of God and also place for freedom for change, always under the leadership of the Holy Spirit. If, in this rapidly changing age, we are unwilling to change under His guidance then things could get very ugly.

At the same time the opposite cannot be held, that is, if only that which is commanded is allowed. We would then have to say that even a church building is wrong, or a pulpit, or any order of service. But I doubt such a church could function or worship.

You know that we could build a perfect copy of the wilderness tabernacle based on the Books of Moses but unless the Shekinah Glory is in the Most Holy Place it would just be a tent. We need both the form and the freedom that comes with His presence.

One other thought I would like to share, Brother Andrew was a man known as God’s Smuggler back during the Cold War. He shares of a time when he went into Bulgaria to minister to the underground church there. While he was there the underground church leader brought him to a “puppet” church to show him what they were like. The puppet churches behind the Iron Curtain were set up by the communist government as a pretense for religious liberty, they were completely under the control of the government.

After the morning service in the puppet church Brother Andrew was surprised that the pastor invited him to come back in the evening and speak to the church. Brother Andrew told the pastor that he would think about it. As he prayed that afternoon he was sure that the Lord wanted him to go. That evening he spoke and the Lord moved in that place and over a hundred were turned to Christ and filled with the Spirit, including the pastor.

The fire burned only for a short time in that church because the communist government soon installed a new puppet in the pulpit but those hundred Spirit filled believers were scattered across Bulgaria to witness unto Christ in that land. Just think of the loss if Brother Andrew had been unwilling to go to that church with a “come out from among them” attitude.

The point is that we should not look at the dead, dry bones of different organizations but at the God who breathes His life into us. Can we trust Him to do that wherever He has placed us?

In Christ,

Ron

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Ron Halverson