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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Did Jesus really Die as a Substitute for our Sins?- by Michael Brown

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brothagary
Member



Joined: 2011/10/23
Posts: 1863


 Re:

When we move a Little further from the physical suffering of Christ ,we move into the realm of hell or Sheol ,were we are told in scripture the pain of death could not hold him ,this shows that Jesus suffered the pain of death the death hold of hell for a time before the resurrection ,,he did not just go to the place in hell called Paradise where there was no pain ,,but that death it self was a place of torment and paings , heres some random translations from bible hub about that place Christ was in .

But my point being that he suffered gods wrath in our place

The pain and pains of death that well take hold of sinners when they die ,and you and i had Christ not did the unthinkable for us



New International Version
But God raised him from the dead, freeing him from the agony of death, because it was impossible for death to keep its hold on him.

New Living Translation
But God released him from the horrors of death and raised him back to life, for death could not keep him in its grip.

English Standard Version
God raised him up, loosing the pangs of death, because it was not possible for him to be held by it.

New American Standard Bible
"But God raised Him up again, putting an end to the agony of death, since it was impossible for Him to be held in its power.

King James Bible
Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
God raised Him up, ending the pains of death, because it was not possible for Him to be held by it.

International Standard Version
But God raised him up and put an end to suffering of death, since it was impossible for him to be held by it,

NET Bible
But God raised him up, having released him from the pains of death, because it was not possible for him to be held in its power.

 2014/11/4 23:53Profile
tbsounde2
Member



Joined: 2009/2/11
Posts: 179
Los Angeles, CA

 Re:

Hi brother Tom,

You wrote: "God did not punish Jesus! He had no right or reason to punish Jesus whose perfect righteousness made Him immune from the punishment due to sinners"

Maybe I am not understanding properly what you were trying to get across. Could you expound on your statement a bit further. I just want to make sure because people use words differently sometimes and so we might need to try to start by defining what you mean by the word "punishment" because if we are using it in the traditional sense of the word, then the Bible is quite clear that God did pour out our punishment upon Christ. For example, in Isaiah 53 which explicitly says that Christ was punished on our behalf and Paul's statement in 2 Corinthians 5:21 that says that Christ was made sin by the Father for us (not saying that Jesus had any personal sin, but getting to the idea that our guilt was laid on Him and He received the full extent of the punishment that we deserve). If we also think to the sacrifices for sin under the Law, we find that it is God who requires punishment be made in order for pardon to justly be given. Though it is man who obeys and performs the sacrifice, it is ultimately God who is punishing by His ordaining of it and the person doing it merely an instrument. Now, it is clear that such sacrifice was merely a shadow of what was to come as made clear in Hebrews and that the sacrifices of bulls and goats is not able to truly forgive sin. This is where Romans 3:25-26 really comes into play explaining that God was basically looking forward in time to what He would do to His Son on the cross, who is the perfect and spotless Lamb that takes away the sins of the world, and was punished on our behalf like the bulls and goats and lambs were, but these being merely symbolic, whereas Jesus being the real deal to which even these things made prophecy.

Brother Todd,

I think we should spend a bit more time on what you brought up, as in your statement that God punishing Jesus is unjust. Am I correct in assuming that you believe in the Trinity, that God is One but in three persons (obviously a mystery that is hard to comprehend)? I am taking it that you do believe this. This is important as a starting point because if God were not triune, then it would indeed be unjust for God the Father to punish God the Son. But, and once again acknowledging that it is a mystery, if the Trinity means that God is One, then one can conclude that God the Father punishing God the Son means that He punished Himself. So based on this premise, I bring up the next point that in my opinion, the rules of justice seems to get a bit tricky when it comes to the Law Giver Himself. Although God is not subject to His own Law as if it was above Him (as was mentioned by brother Tim), we have to make note of the fact that it is a part of Him, not just merely something outside of Him that He gave, but actually a part of who He is (not saying that the Law is God, but that it is from the depths of who He is, reflection of Himself so to speak). To carry this thought on, we also see that God isn't just and merciful because He does those things, but that He does justly and mercifully because He is, period; the I AM. So His justice and mercy are not merely some external act, but a part of who God is. This is not the easiest to comprehend, because for us, we know things by means of demonstration, but God needs no demonstration, He could have sent everyone to hell for their sin and still be a merciful God, because He (who has no lie or falsehood in Himself) said that He is. So now to bring it home, because God is just and because His Law is a part of who He is, which also makes Him the Law Giver, any sin that is committed requires punishment by God Himself, not the Law as an external thing, but by God Himself who is the Law. And it is His own self, not justice as an external thing, that needs to be satisfied. And it is here that God chooses to punish Himself, to satisfy Himself, so that He can be fully satisfied in forgiving us, and be completely just in the process because justice wasn't external to Him as if He needed to please it, but that He needed to satisfy Himself according to His own nature. This is my reasoning, or at least my best attempt at explaining why I conclude that it was just for God the Father to punish God the Son (essentially Himself).


_________________
Will

 2014/11/5 0:30Profile
brothagary
Member



Joined: 2011/10/23
Posts: 1863


 Re:

well said will

 2014/11/5 1:02Profile
tbsounde2
Member



Joined: 2009/2/11
Posts: 179
Los Angeles, CA

 Re:

Brother Tim,

You wrote: "His law is to reveal Himself and his nature and His glory."

I got quite excited when I read that statement as I know exactly what you mean and wrote a poem about it a while back if anyone cares to read it :)
It's called "vessels of mercy"
*for people who listen to Paul Washer, you'll see that I quoted him toward the end of the poem



when i look out into this world what do my eyes behold?
a revelation of God’s character and the truth begins to unfold

angels in radiant glory all surrounding His throne
all assembled for one purpose and for one purpose alone

God, clearly visible yet still not fully known
creation anticipating as they inwardly groan

for the revelation of God’s character, for it to be shown
through the blood of the Savior and by it to atone

the vessels of mercy on which is the demonstration of His love
for prior to, there was no knowledge of such an amazing love

only rumors and myths and legends herewith

for love, mercy, justice, righteousness, and kindness are qualities inherent within God
but without a demonstration just an empty, meaningless, baseless facade

for how can you know what kindness is without it being shown
or righteousness and justice without a hell for sinners to be thrown

that before lucifer fell, creation did not know
what God’s perfect justice was until judgment was shown

made clear for all creation to now see
that God is just and so all must agree

but this story on it continues
for there is still much more that will enthuse

and make creation shout for joy
so continue to incline your ears and let your hearts be filled with joy

for the revelation of His character did not end merely with judgment
but continues with, for us, a greater adornment

for He chose to show mercy to adam and eve
although they sinned and God’s heart they did grieve

but He went down to their level and made for them clothes
even though they disobeyed and willfully opposed

but even in mercy one thing remains clear
sin cannot just be pardoned and thus we are brought to fear

for although God can overlook for a time being
His justice demands and creation agreeing

that all who sin must be brought to trial
or else His holy name and character be completely defiled

and thus we are brought to a seeming contradiction
for how can a holy, righteous, and just God just pardon our felonious conviction

and it is here my friends that we see the greatest depiction
of who God is through His only begotten Son’s crucifixion

but let us elaborate on this before moving on
on this Christ and the injustices all but foregone

for although being God, He did not consider equality with God something to be grasped
but humbled Himself to the form of a bondservant, obedient to death, even on a cross

born in a filthy manger, to a poor peasant family
not of affluence or privilege or any other thing to which we esteem

thirty years of life for three years of ministry
sinless and perfect by every standard and decree

but forsaken and abandoned by not only His people
but those closest to Him, even His very own disciples

beaten, flogged, spit on and robbed
of His nobility, His dignity, His majesty, and beauty

but the fulfillment of God’s wrath was not found in these things
but we must look further beyond mere superficial things

and thus we now find ourselves kneeling before the tree
looking upon His nail pierced hands and the Lord making His plea

“my God, my God, why have you forsaken me”
for as it says in isaiah chapter 53

that it pleased the Lord to crush Him…

not the romans, not the jews, not the whips, or the nails or the cross, or even the crown of thorns

but as it says, that IT PLEASED THE LORD TO CRUSH HIS OWN SON

and this my friends is the righteous and just love of our Father
what He demonstrated to creation that they would no longer ponder

the mystery of the ages now made plain for all to see
the angels in heaven falling to their faces because of you and me

for our salvation was not an end but actually a means
for God to reveal His love so that all creation may see

let me further elaborate on this point…

that from all of creation God chose us to be
the object to receive His incomprehensible love and mercy

not angles or stars or heavenly hosts
but lowly dust, you and me, made for His boast

for it is in the revelation
of God’s character through demonstration
that the entirety of creation
may come into deeper realization

of His infinite and immeasureable character and worth
filling all of creation from heaven to earth

but wait my brothers and sisters gathered here this day
there is still some more of this truth you must hear today

for there is still much more left to this amazing story
and in it you will understand more of our Father’s glory

for the day we leave this earth to enter heaven’s door
we will fully understand the purpose to which we were created for

creation waiting in great anticipation
asking themselves what God will do for this holy nation

a nation composed of all those who overcame
by the blood of the Lamb and the testimony of His glorious Name

these vessels of mercy refined through the fire
of trial and persecution unto the Lord’s sovereign desire

then, all of a sudden, God comes arrayed in His infinite glory and splendor and majesty
and begins to pour out an immeasurable amount of love, and grace, and kindness, and mercy

upon us which causes us to fall to our faces and begin to worship…

and now, the rest of creation witnesses firsthand this demonstration of God’s love and then also proceed to fall to their faces exclaiming “only God can do such a thing”

and say that we were to sleep and wake the next day, the entire process starts again, with creation looking intently at us asking themselves, what is God gonna to do for these vessels of mercy today. and then God, comes in His infinite glory and splendor and majesty and begins to pour out even more love, and grace, and kindness, and blessing, and favor and then we along with the rest of creation, fall to our faces in worship exclaiming “only God can do such a thing”

that heaven is basically a place where we will, for all of eternity, dwell in, comprehend, and receive, the infinite love of God; that each passing day far exceeds the day that came before it and this for all of eternity, to search out God’s love forever and ever

so you see our salvation was not an end but actually a means
for God to reveal His love so that all creation may see

that from all of creation God chose us to be
the object to receive His incomprehensible love and mercy

not angels or stars or heavenly hosts
but lowly dust, you and me, made for His boast

for it is in the revelation
of God’s character through demonstration
that the entirety of creation
may come into deeper realization

of His infinite and immeasureable character and worth
filling all of creation from heaven to earth

in and through His vessels of mercy
in and through His vessels, you and me


_________________
Will

 2014/11/5 1:11Profile
Sree
Member



Joined: 2011/8/20
Posts: 1731


 Re:

Quote:

Quote: "If it appears unjust to people then it is left to them."

Please understand I am playing something of a devil's advocate here. But when you make the above statement it seems like you are saying that what God did with Jesus at the cross WAS just. In other words in that instance it was just to allow an innocent man (Jesus) to be cruelly tortured and murdered in the most heinous way imaginable but NOT punish the guilty party at all. (I know that Dolfan mentioned that we are punished- i.e. we die etc. but Jesus did not die for our physical lives).



TMK, I understand that you are playing a Devil's advocate. I love playing such roles as well!

The point I was trying to make is based on Isaiah 53:1 is that God has to reveal us about the sacrifice of Jesus and not human logics. Because it is beyond our logics or justice system. To me based on the revelation it is the only possible solution for my sins. It is height of his love for me, I am not willing to see whether the action is just or unjust according to my standard.

Now to place a logical argument is very difficult because Justice is a relative term. What is Just according to one person may be unjust to another. For example Capital punishment is a just according to many courts but not according to certain courts and nation. Now if a guy like Hitler stands before a court then even the most liberal court will grant him death penality. But there will always be people who will oppose this judgment calling it injustice because it has not given any room for Hitler to change. But the argument here is the court gave the death penality not because it hated Hitler but because of the severity of his crimes. Now his crimes are so severe that the court has decided that he is no longer fit to live. Even though there is a very low chance of him changing his heart and living as a normal human, still based on the severity of his crime, this is his only possible judgment.

Same way the severity of my sin is so deep that God was left with no other solution than to send his perfect son as a sacrifice for me. Just like Hitler's death penaity might appear injustice but that is the only possible solution to save the mankind. God expressed his plan for Jesus the moment Adam sinned, he knew that only via Jesus he will be able to crush satan and the way he has currupted mankind.




_________________
Sreeram

 2014/11/5 1:43Profile
Sidewalk
Member



Joined: 2011/11/11
Posts: 706
San Diego

 Re: Continuing...

Let me assure any reader that I consider these matters of how the atonement of Jesus Christ works to our eternal salvation to be of utmost importance and as holy as any thing we might discuss. I come from a background of religious instruction that was highly destructive to my pursuit of God, and I witnessed others who did not survive, did not come to peace with God.

My mother-in-law being a prime example, dying under a cloud of gloom, anger and confusion- whose haunting words to us were "God has His favorites, and I am not one of them." She refused to move from that demonic doctrinal lie, having been brought up in the same Presbyterian traditions that affected me.

Paul said in II Corinthians "we destroy arguments, and every proud obstacle that exalts itself against the knowledge of Christ." Obstacles that obscure the love of God or the honor of His relationship with His Son will cause a person either miss the power of His love or even worse create a seed of doubt or contempt that takes away the prospect of intimacy.

Suggesting that the Father put Jesus to death is in my opinion, a mistake. It was our sin that killed Him, and Jesus' own will allowed it to happen. In the Garden He let it be known that He could have called legions of angels to intervene and rescue Him- which He chose not to do.

Jesus the Man did not want to die on the cross, but Jesus the Son of God was determined to do the will of the Father.

When Jesus was transfigured on the mountain, He had put on the immortality that was eternal life. He had walked as a man, tempted at every point, and had arrived on that mountain as a man without sin, completely acceptable in the presence of God. He could have ascended back to heaven at that moment, with complete personal honor.

One problem- He would be there alone.

He had spoken the parable of the man who found the treasure hidden in the field who went and bought the whole field- rather than just removing the treasure. The treasure is that immortality, that glorified completeness He wore for a brief time, then took off so that He could go buy the field. In all of this Jesus Himself is making the decision to follow after the Father's will in obedience.
"He did not count equality with God something to be grasped, but rather emptied Himself and became obedient, even to death on a cross."

Isaiah 53 is the foremost Old Testament prophecy concerning the atonement, and indeed the poetic tone could be construed to say that God was killing His Son. But it was not as if the Father had captured and killed Jesus against His will while He was still a young man making a difference in His world! The need for this sacrifice was already known by The Son while He was yet with the Father. He was indeed the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world. The plan of salvation was conceived before any man drew a breath, it was conceived out of the perfect love that was the essential character of the Father and His Son.

But in all of this we cannot help but to see Christ's obedience as central to the accomplishment. God became a man in Jesus Christ, fully man, fully God. It was the man Jesus who replied to Satan's sneaky question regarding the stones- "If You are the Son of God, turn these stones into bread." Jesus' wise reply "Man shall not live by bread alone..."

He was determined to be fully a man, and to defeat Satan as a man! Had He not become fully man, the atonement itself would not have held validity for us.

There is so much here, but it is late and my wife is snoring nearby. I shall be back...


_________________
Tom Cameron

 2014/11/5 1:56Profile
brothagary
Member



Joined: 2011/10/23
Posts: 1863


 Re:

Brother please dont let your past create your theoligy

Death its self was the result of gods judgment on the human race it was the curse ,,just the fact that christ died shows that he came under that judgment And the bible is clear that it wasnt just any death but one that was according to the determend poupus and the forknowlage of god. He smited and brusied and crushed his son for us

 2014/11/5 3:54Profile
brothagary
Member



Joined: 2011/10/23
Posts: 1863


 Re:

Brother iv had my fair share of demonic deception try to drag me into the pit ,in the way Gnosticism,and drug induced mystical seeking for god ,most of us have had a bumpy ride ,so im not with out sympathy ,but your conclusions dont take in the facts that the first great awakening produced exceptional fruit through the propagations of reformed doctrine even the great arminian Wesley taught this Gospel ,,,so i must say brother you are wrong to say that doctrine was faulty ,maybe you right ,for sure that hypa Calvinism is a stumbling block for evangelism every true believe would agree with that reformed or not ....

But dont get me wrong my argument is not relay with you but the idea being expressed that god didnt need to atone for sin Christ didnt need to die which was being expound earlier even you seem to not appreciate that .....

 2014/11/5 4:27Profile
TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5405
NC, USA

 Re:

Hey Gary-

In the OT, how (in general) did God pour out His wrath on the rebellious Israelites?

Once that question is answered it becomes clearer about what some people believed took place on Calvary, and the events leading up to it.


_________________
Todd

 2014/11/5 6:27Profile









 Re:

BTW, I just wanted to commend everyone with discussing this further. It seems you guys are sifting through various matters and learning more about each respective perspectives. Watching at a distance gives me great joy right now. :)

 2014/11/5 9:25





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