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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Did Jesus really Die as a Substitute for our Sins?- by Michael Brown

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Sree
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Joined: 2011/8/20
Posts: 1714


 Re:

I have not posted my understanding so far. Let me try answering these 2 questions here, based on the way I interpet the scripture.

Quote:

1) God tortured an innocent person and let the guilty (us) get off scott-free. It's awfully nice (at least for us), but is this just?



The entire suffering of Jesus as prophesied by Isaiah in Chapter 53, starts with Isiah crying as -

Who has believed our message
and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?

yes it is truely unbelievable that God will come to earth in a human form, suffer like us but without sin to set an example, die the most painful death for our sins. Now for our justification he rose from death. Who can believe this? Only those to whom God is pleased to reveal this secret. We are only here to exhault Jesus as he is and what he has done. If it appears unjust to people then it is left to them. The beauty of Gospel is it is unbelievable.

Quote:

2) If God put all of our debt and punishment on Jesus, then there is nothing to forgive us for- in fact God has **no reason** to forgive us because Jesus has paid our debt in full. But scripture seems to suggest that God forgives us.



God forgiving our sins has nothing to do with Jesus. I know I will be attacked for what I am saying. Forgiveness existed even before Jesus came to this earth. David says blessed is the man whoes sins are covered. So forgiveness existed even in OT. All a man has to do is to turn to God like Prodigal son and say I am sorry for what I have done.

Now the difference between OT and NT is, we have something more than forgiveness, this is Justification. In OT only sins are covered, which means they still exists somewhere but has been covered or hidden. In NT God after forgiving us, he also justifies us. Justification is God looking at as if we have not sinned. God will look at us like how he looked Jesus. This is positional, based on my faith in the blood of Jesus. Only those who repent and stand by faith are justified. Jestification is not based on work but based on my position in Jesus. This justification though is available for the whole world, it is not applicable because they do not take this position in Jesus.

Sacrifice of Jesus is like God writing a open check to all. But only those who accept this check and deposit it in Bank with faith will inherit the fund. Else they will never get the fund.


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Sreeram

 2014/11/4 2:19Profile
TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5388
NC, USA

 Re:

Quote: "If it appears unjust to people then it is left to them."

Please understand I am playing something of a devil's advocate here. But when you make the above statement it seems like you are saying that what God did with Jesus at the cross WAS just. In other words in that instance it was just to allow an innocent man (Jesus) to be cruelly tortured and murdered in the most heinous way imaginable but NOT punish the guilty party at all. (I know that Dolfan mentioned that we are punished- i.e. we die etc. but Jesus did not die for our physical lives).

The problem with this is that it is a "legal fiction." Just calling something "just" does not mean that it is. A dog has five legs if you call his tail a leg, but regardless he in reality only has 4 legs. And what do we always say-- that God is always just. He is both loving and merciful but this is always tempered by his justice. For example, in discussions regarding an eternal hell the statement is always made that yes, God is loving but his justice must be satisfied.

So the objection regarding #1 is how does the idea of penal substitutionary atonement REALLY reflect the justice of God? I agree that it reflects his mercy and love, but how does it square with justice?

Someone below gave the example of a king taking the whipping for his wife. But that is not justice, because the king shouldn't have been whipped at all. It is something else, like a nice story and and example of love and mercy.


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Todd

 2014/11/4 6:01Profile
brothagary
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Joined: 2011/10/23
Posts: 1863


 Re:

Jesus laying down his own life and suffering was definitely not unjust ,to sugest that any part of the Gospel like the father punishing Jesus was unjust is well what word can i use with out seeming harsh ,insane .The bible says the chastisement that brought us peace was upon him ,this action was righteous and just because it was Justis that had to be performed the one who created men and cursed them for sin said i will bare the punishment and i will justifier them and make them holy i will change even there nature to be like mine so in the eyes of men they will be justfied .

The thing is only the law giver has the right to bare that punishment ,because he is god and forgives the guilt because ultimately all sin is against god him self,it is breaking his law ,because of this it is just for Jesus to take our punishment and for the father to crush him for us ..

How can anyone say that has the holy spirit that it was unjust what happened with out rejecting what is written ,and the holy logic behind the salvation plan ,the result is to say god was unjust .

 2014/11/4 6:30Profile
TMK
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Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5388
NC, USA

 Re:

Gary you are appealing to emotion but not reason. What you seem to be possibly saying is that since God is God He can do what He wants; I.e. He doesn't always have to be perfectly just. He can pardon people who don't deserve to be pardoned and punish someone else who is innocent in order to pardon the guilty.

But if you say that God can "suspend" his justice in that instance you leave yourself open to the possibility that He can suspend his justice in other areas.


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Todd

 2014/11/4 7:37Profile
dolfan
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Joined: 2011/8/23
Posts: 1632
Alabama

 Re:

And there is more to the issue than the justice of the death of Jesus. The glory of God is also in the balances of justice here, and it is that glory that justice serves. After all, the whole creation exists for His glory.

Jesus prayed before His crucifixion in John 12.

27 “Now is my soul troubled. And what shall I say? ‘Father, save me from this hour’? But for this purpose I have come to this hour. 28 Father, glorify your name.” Then a voice came from heaven: “I have glorified it, and I will glorify it again.” 29 The crowd that stood there and heard it said that it had thundered. Others said, “An angel has spoken to him.” 30 Jesus answered, “This voice has come for your sake, not mine. 31 Now is the judgment of this world; now will the ruler of this world be cast out. 32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”

"...for this purpose I have come to this hour. Father, glorify your name."

In the counsel of His own will, He, being God and thus the sole personage of perfection and justice, the One by whom justice itself is defined, determined before that His glory in the sight of His fallen creation should be revealed in such a way that those who would believe would run to it and those who would not would mock it.

What the question posed really asks is not "was God just" but "which would be more just....for God to forsake His own glory and spare His Son, or for God to glorify Himself by crucifying His Son?"

If anyone thinks God would be more just to withhold His glory and spare His Son, then Jesus would not have forsaken His glory, He would have counted equality with God a thing to be grasped and He would not have been found in the likeness of sinful flesh, let alone subject Himself to a cross.

The king who spares his mother's life does not do it to glorify His mother. He does not glorify himself, even. He glorifies the rule of law, but even then that rule is depersonalized as a force that must be satisfied. Not so with our God, whose law is not to preserve His sovereignty as are the laws of men. His law is to reveal Himself and his nature and His glory. When His law is satisfied in the death of His Son, He is glorified personally. His great mercy and love are, indeed, made real in the eyes and hearts of men. His perfect justice is known and He is understood as God in the truest sense of understanding that can occur.


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Tim

 2014/11/4 8:19Profile
Sidewalk
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Joined: 2011/11/11
Posts: 706
San Diego

 Re:

Sree makes an excellent point:

"Now the difference between OT and NT is, we have something more than forgiveness, this is Justification. In OT only sins are covered, which means they still exists somewhere but has been covered or hidden. In NT God after forgiving us, he also justifies us. Justification is God looking at as if we have not sinned. God will look at us like how he looked Jesus. This is positional, based on my faith in the blood of Jesus. Only those who repent and stand by faith are justified. Justification is not based on work but based on my position in Jesus. This justification though is available for the whole world, it is not applicable because they do not take this position in Jesus. "
---------------------------------------------
There is a difference between pardon and forgiveness. Forgiveness is the personal, the repair of a relationship. Pardon is the legal part, becoming free from the demands for punishment under the law. In Christ we may have both- the restored relationship and the legal pardon.

A classic example of the difference between forgiveness and pardon is President Richard Nixon. The man received a pardon, but was never forgiven by the American public.

So both forgiveness and pardon while somewhat separate, are necessary.

Romans 10:10- "For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation."


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Tom Cameron

 2014/11/4 11:23Profile
brothagary
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Joined: 2011/10/23
Posts: 1863


 Re:

H Tod ,i dont think im appealing to emotions because it is the emotional natural man that finds the sacrificial system unjust ,neither would i be appealing to natural mans reason ,because even the old covenant seems unreasonable

the message of the cross in all its aspects {expiation and propitiation } is non reasonable to the natural man

to somebody who has god in side them appealing to the sourventy of god and as dolphin said the glory of that god, is what is reasonable ,rember the cross of Christ is foolish to those who are perishing but to us who are being saved it is the power of god ,

Our job is not trying to explain to the Carnal natural man how this is a reasonable transaction , just preach it as we believe it and pray the holy spirit opens there hearts to the message

 2014/11/4 14:53Profile
brothagary
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Joined: 2011/10/23
Posts: 1863


 Re:

i dont know side walk i think the bible teaches we are justafied the same way abrham was by faith

 2014/11/4 14:55Profile
brothagary
Member



Joined: 2011/10/23
Posts: 1863


 Re:

Tod i was thinking a problem is that gods idea of Justis is different from worldly Justis you only need to look at gods judgment in the bible like the great flood to see god righteous judgment is different from the natural mans ,so when you ask the question how does gods wrath being poured out of Jesus reflect gods Justis ,think about looking at it through a biblical definition of gods righteous judgment rather then through our fleshly mind which would be the natural way of defining things like Justis and righteousness

 2014/11/4 19:23Profile
Sidewalk
Member



Joined: 2011/11/11
Posts: 706
San Diego

 Re: faith and justice.

Gary, we are justified by faith, even from the incredible revelation Luther had that works were not a part of our salvation, unto the theology most evangelicals still embrace. But we are not forgiven because God is in a good mood, or looks at someone and decides He likes him. Jesus died because the legal component of our salvation stood in the way of God's mercy.

If God were to forgive man outside of the law, Satan would rightly be in His face with a just accusation faster than a fat guy on a doughnut. No, God must uphold His law and no man will be able to say he was unjustly condemned because some other person was excused. Without the atonement of Jesus Christ, all compassion, faith, weeping, and repenting is useless. God's law will be neither mocked nor suspended.

Think about a courtroom scene where a criminal murder defendent apologizes with tears and complete sincerity to the family of his victim. There may be a great emotional outpouring, forgiveness extended, regrets abounding. But the law has been broken and the guilty must be punished. He can say he is sorry, but the victim is still dead.

Now the judge may impose the minimum sentence, and the murderer may get a parole- as mercy seeks the least punishment possible. Well and good, but without reasonable punishment justice breaks and other murderers will cite the case precedent to also escape punishment from their crimes. This is extremely destructive to societal order, and one reason third world hell-hole countries remain as they are.

God's law is good, it is intended for the public blessing, it is intended to be written on our hearts so that we would live like Jesus did and does. The whole new covenant is about the law being transferred from being an accusation against us to a virtue within us. When Christ comes within to live, He becomes an internal law by which we live in a regenerated state.

Any problem with that?


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Tom Cameron

 2014/11/4 19:36Profile





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