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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Did Jesus really Die as a Substitute for our Sins?- by Michael Brown

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 Re:

I heard someone speak against Penal Substitution this way, "If Jesus paid for our sins...why would God need to forgive us."

I.e. If I owe Bank of America 1,000. But Greg pays BoA 1,000. Bank of America can't forgive my loan because it's been paid.

I think the Orthodox/Catholics have a more firm foundation. Christus Victor. That God made a random for us, pursued us, and forgave us, simply out of His good, loving nature.

 2014/10/31 19:24
Sidewalk
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Joined: 2011/11/11
Posts: 706
San Diego

 Re:

This is the doctrine of Universalism. All is paid, all go to heaven, love and joy for all.

It just is not true. The death of Christ on the cross enables God to save those who repent, but it does not obligate God to save anyone.


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Tom Cameron

 2014/10/31 20:28Profile









 Re:

"The death of Christ on the cross enables God to save those who repent"

Um no. God doesn't require sacrifice to forgive the sins of people.

Second, I'm not preaching universalism. One thief was forgiven. The other wasn't.

All we need to do is to come to God. He will forgive us. Is. 52:3, 54:8-10, 55:7

 2014/10/31 22:02
Sidewalk
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Joined: 2011/11/11
Posts: 706
San Diego

 Re:

LMH, please don't think I am criticizing your preaching, I am only describing how universalism is founded, and it is a very prevalent notion the true church must confront. To say that God does not require a sacrifice to forgive sin is completely contrary to both the scripture and the natural obligations of the law. It would make God a tyrant who needlessly put His Son to death. We do not want to go there.

The two major views of the atoning work of Christ on the cross are Retributive Justice where all the sins of the elect are individually laid on Christ, and paid for directly. The universalist takes that idea and draws out that it would not be fair to forgive some sins and not all, so all men's sins must be covered. In this view, God becomes obligated to save all whose sins are thus covered and forgiven by the sacrifice.

I contend for a different view, that of Public Justice. In this view, no man's sins are covered unless he actively seeks forgiveness and to have his sins washed by the blood of Jesus. Thus the phrase, "accepting Christ as one's personal savior." His blood is mighty to save, but useless to those who reject Him. It is because of this that God, through the blood of Jesus, stands ready to save all men as all men repent. He at the same time, cannot save those who do not repent and do not receive the death of Jesus as their own substitutionary death.

That is why I firmly believe that the death of Jesus Christ enables The Father to save all men, but does not obligate Him to save anyone.

And this is the foundation of the evangelistic message to all men to come to Jesus for the remission of sins, turn from your wicked ways, let the Savior's sacrifice be your death for the sins that would otherwise condemn you.

I hope that clarifies and explains why Jesus so forcefully commanded the disciples to go into all the world teaching men to observe all the things He told them. Because without faith and the blood, God cannot save them!


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Tom Cameron

 2014/11/1 0:24Profile
Oracio
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Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2039
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

Quote:
Um no. God doesn't require sacrifice to forgive the sins of people.


"And according to the law almost all things are purified with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no remission. 23 Therefore it was necessary that the copies of the things in the heavens should be purified with these, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24 For Christ has not entered the holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; 25 not that He should offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood of another-- 26 He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself."-Hebrews 9:22-26

And there are so many other passages of Scripture you'd have to toss out in order to keep the notion that no sacrifice was needed for the forgiveness of our sins.


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Oracio

 2014/11/1 11:08Profile
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 Re: The Sacrifice that allows for forgiveness

As the moral governor of the universe, God is under obligation to both uphold and obey His own law. The most dramatic illustration of this is Jesus Himself who, being in the form of God was perfectly obedient to the law, and was without sin. He thus paid a debt for sin He did not owe.

In other posts I have referenced the conversation between Jesus and the Father in the Garden of Gethsemane. So critical to understand that Jesus made an appeal for some other way to save men without his going to the cross. But there was no other way to preserve the integrity of the law without the sacrifice. The Father had two options for His beloved Son, to return to heaven as He was, alone, or to purchase mankind with this sacrifice. It was not an easy decision as we know from the gospel account. But we know the choice Jesus made, submitting His will to the Father's will.

In the end, the law was preserved, Jesus chose to obey on His own, the Father received His Son in full honor, and the veil between God and man was torn from the top to the bottom. There is a way from the curse of sin to the eternal presence of God. Without that sacrifice, there would be no way.

The most foolish thing any man can do is to reject this most profound loving act of sacrifice and die under the curse of his own sin.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

It is really true!


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Tom Cameron

 2014/11/1 13:56Profile









 Re:

Ps. 51:16 - For You do not delight in sacrifice, otherwise I would give it; You are not pleased with burnt offering.

I see Jesus showing us that God shouldn't be seen as 'an eye for an eye'.

"God is under obligation to both uphold and obey His own law."

Is. 54:9. God has sworn to not be wrathful. vs 10 goes further 'my kindness won't leave you'. Also, would you say Jesus disobeyed God when He didn't cast a stone to the woman that was caught in adultery? I'd say Jesus was showing us the Father. He doesn't judge us. We...judge ourselves. (John 5:22)

"But there was no other way to preserve the integrity of the law without the sacrifice."

I have to disagree with this perception. God the Father was never angry with His children that He needed to kill His very own son.

God has always been filled with lovingkindness. He doesn't need a sacrifice to be satisfied. This is a pagan view. Instead, God chose Israel. It's an unconditional choice of God.

I see God showed us the way to live with the very life of Jesus. Kind of like, "Hey guys...I'm going to do everything right. Let's see what happens." Then our evil system kills God.

Cain killed innocent Abel. etc etc.

I think the best way to accept the loving act of sacrifice that Jesus committed to was to go and do the same; take up our own cross, live the Sermon on the Mount.

Also, when it comes to justice. I view it in the conclusion of Psalm 7. "15 He who digs a hole and hollows it
will then fall into his own pit.
16 His mischief will return on his own head;
his violence will descend on the crown of his own head."

 2014/11/1 18:28
Oracio
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Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2039
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

Quote:
Ps. 51:16 - For You do not delight in sacrifice, otherwise I would give it; You are not pleased with burnt offering.

I see Jesus showing us that God shouldn't be seen as 'an eye for an eye'.

"God is under obligation to both uphold and obey His own law."

Is. 54:9. God has sworn to not be wrathful. vs 10 goes further 'my kindness won't leave you'. Also, would you say Jesus disobeyed God when He didn't cast a stone to the woman that was caught in adultery? I'd say Jesus was showing us the Father. He doesn't judge us. We...judge ourselves. (John 5:22)

"But there was no other way to preserve the integrity of the law without the sacrifice."

I have to disagree with this perception. God the Father was never angry with His children that He needed to kill His very own son.

God has always been filled with lovingkindness. He doesn't need a sacrifice to be satisfied. This is a pagan view. Instead, God chose Israel. It's an unconditional choice of God.

I see God showed us the way to live with the very life of Jesus. Kind of like, "Hey guys...I'm going to do everything right. Let's see what happens." Then our evil system kills God.

Cain killed innocent Abel. etc etc.

I think the best way to accept the loving act of sacrifice that Jesus committed to was to go and do the same; take up our own cross, live the Sermon on the Mount.

Also, when it comes to justice. I view it in the conclusion of Psalm 7. "15 He who digs a hole and hollows it
will then fall into his own pit.
16 His mischief will return on his own head;
his violence will descend on the crown of his own head."



That is a denial of clear essential biblical teaching on the atonement of Christ and God's wrath and judgment against sin and unrepentant sinners. Since you deny clear teaching from God's Word on the atonement of Christ I'd be willing to bet you'd also deny the clear scriptures on God's wrath even if those scriptures were shared with you (you may already be familiar with them). LMH, I fear for your soul. May God have mercy on you while there is time.


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Oracio

 2014/11/1 18:53Profile









 Re:

Oracio, Penal Substitution isn't a 'clear essential biblical teaching'.

Second, the ONLY essential biblical teaching is this, "If you believe in your heart and confess with your mouth that 'Jesus is Lord' you will be saved."

Perfect doctrine doesn't give us access to heaven. The perfect person does. :)

 2014/11/1 19:22
Sidewalk
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Joined: 2011/11/11
Posts: 706
San Diego

 Re:

LMH, there appears to be way too much distance between our trains to come to much concensus. The sacrifice David knew was insufficient in Psalm 51 was the kind of sacrifice one would try to appease an idol with, a bribe to avoid justice. No, David knew that any sacrifice or burnt offering would neither alter God's heart nor suspend His law. He throws himself on God's mercy, and God accepts him based on a promise that will be fulfilled when the real sacrifice is made, Jesus of Nazareth on the cross.

Please understand that God could not kill His Son as the atoning sacrifice. There is no murder here, until of course the local Jewish leaders conspire with the Romans to put an innocent man to death. But that is why the prayer in Gethsemane is so important, Jesus willingly gives His life for His disciples and us by extension.

I'm sorry, but God does not forgive based on His mood or because He has the power to abolish the penalty for any man's sin. Just as James 2:10 points out that if you transgress in one point you are guilty of the whole law, there is none righteous, not even one. God cannot suspend the penalty of even one sin without unravelling His authority over the entire moral universe. It is a very, very big deal!

As to the woman seized in the act of adultery, conspicuously without her male co-offender, Jesus actually invited the accusers to carry out the punishment of the law. Where He might have expressed some syruppy support for this poor woman, he did not. He just suggested that the first stone be cast by someone of the accusers who had no sin of their own. Monumentally clever, he knew that they would watch each other and that if one of their number were to reach down for that first stone a whole new flurry of accusations would explode.

Jesus is writing on the ground, we know not what. He is not looking at the woman or the accusers. But when He looks up, only the woman is standing in front of Him. "Woman, where are your accusers?" They are gone. Not even one man to join Him in a legal condemnation of her sin.
Then He says two important things- "Neither do I condemn you," since any accusation must have, by law, two witnesses. "Go and sin no more."

He acknowledges that what she has done was sin. And note that she does not ask for His forgiveness, and He does not offer her that.

Jesus preserved the integrity of the law, brought proper shame on both the woman and her accusers, all with a display of a righteous compassion that fueled the drive to execute Him.


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Tom Cameron

 2014/11/1 19:24Profile





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