SermonIndex Audio Sermons
Image Map
Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Sodom Would've Repented, If...

Print Thread (PDF)

Goto page ( 1 | 2 | 3 Next Page )
PosterThread
Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2039
Whittier CA USA

 Sodom Would've Repented, If...

Disclaimer: The scripture passage I am about to mention here can possibly open up a big can of worms and be the cause of ill-willed debate among Christians, and that is not my intention in sharing it here. I was meditating on this passage lately and thought it was a heavy portion of scripture to consider:

“20 Then He began to rebuke the cities in which most of His mighty works had been done, because they did not repent: 21 "Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. 22 But I say to you, it will be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon in the day of judgment than for you. 23 And you, Capernaum, who are exalted to heaven, will be brought down to Hades; for if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day. 24 But I say to you that it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment than for you."-Matthew 11:20-24


The part that really struck me as being heavy is the part about the people in those cities (Tyre, Sidon, and Sodom) being spoken of as being more disposed to repent than the people in the cities being rebuked by Christ. In other words, Christ is saying that He knew that the people of Tyre, Sidon and Sodom would have been more open, more receptive to His miracles and preaching than these other cities where He had done most of His miracles. So if certain conditions were met the people in those cities (Tyre, Sidon and Sodom) would have repented and been saved. Yet God in His sovereignty did not choose to provide those cities with those kinds of miracles that would have led to their salvation, because God is not a debtor to sinful men.

By contrast, God graciously provided the people of Nineveh with the means of salvation through the preaching of Jonah.

I'm not sure what this says about man's "free will", considering the fact that the people of those cities of Old Testament times would have repented had Christ done His miracles and preached there.

Heavy. One of those things in which we must trust God’s wisdom and righteous ways even if we don’t fully understand it all this side of heaven.


_________________
Oracio

 2014/9/16 17:40Profile
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4794


 Re: Sodom Would've Repented, If...

Two thoughts, first Christ was sent to specific generation within God's plan. So one must also consider the Scripture you sighted within that context.


Secondly,
Gen 18:25
“Far be it from You to do such a thing as this, to slay the righteous with the wicked, so that the righteous should be as the wicked; far be it from You! Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?”

Gen 18:26
So the LORD said, “If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare all the place for their sakes.”

Gen 18:27
Then Abraham answered and said, “Indeed now, I who am but dust and ashes have taken it upon myself to speak to the Lord:

Gen 18:28
“Suppose there were five less than the fifty righteous; would You destroy all of the city for lack of five?” So He said, “If I find there forty-five, I will not destroy it.”

Gen 18:29
And he spoke to Him yet again and said, “Suppose there should be forty found there?” So He said, “I will not do it for the sake of forty.”

Gen 18:30
Then he said, “Let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak: Suppose thirty should be found there?” So He said, “I will not do it if I find thirty there.”

Gen 18:31
And he said, “Indeed now, I have taken it upon myself to speak to the Lord: Suppose twenty should be found there?” So He said, “I will not destroy it for the sake of twenty.”

Gen 18:32
Then he said, “Let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak but once more: Suppose ten should be found there?” And He said, “I will not destroy it for the sake of ten.”


Sodom would have been spared if 10 righteous men were found in it. Remember, God is not willing that any should perish but all come to repentance. So as Paul writes...

Rom 1:18
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,

Rom 1:19
because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them.

Rom 1:20
For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,


The men of Sodom were "without excuse."


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2014/9/16 20:37Profile
TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5388
NC, USA

 Re:

If the men of Sodom were without excuse why did Jesus say they would have repented had they seen the miracles he performed? They were not given that opportunity.

Unless Jesus was exaggerating to make a point.


_________________
Todd

 2014/9/16 20:51Profile
Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2039
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

Good points/observations rookie and TMK. Indeed, this is a passage and topic that requires much deep, prayerful consideration and wrestling with.

rookie, in considering this passage I struggled with reconciling it with the truth of God not being willing that any should perish and not desiring the death of the wicked but rather their repentance-Ezek.33:11.

TMK, I'd say that even if Sodom was not placed in a certain situation in which they would have repented, God is still righteous in their destruction and damnation because of their wickedness. They remain without excuse because they chose their evil ways and refused to repent without miracles. They had enough light to condemn them.

But you bring up a good point about the possibility of Christ using hyperbole. We know He used hyperbole in other passages such as Matthew 5 where He says one should cut off a hand and pluck out an eye if they cause one to sin.

Another thing that comes out from this passage in Matthew 11 is the issue of degrees of punishment in hell. Although all who die in their sins will receive eternal punishment, not all will be punished exactly alike in terms of degree of punishment.


_________________
Oracio

 2014/9/16 23:36Profile
brothagary
Member



Joined: 2011/10/23
Posts: 1863


 Re:

oraco... What your seeing there is gods election of grace ,god choses not to save those at Sodom as an example of judgment and his sovereign elective choice

 2014/9/17 5:03Profile
Heydave
Member



Joined: 2008/4/12
Posts: 1306
Hampshire, UK

 Re:

Is it possible that we are confusing two different things here and equating them to be one and the same?
What I mean is that the destruction being spoken of is, is a physical destruction of temporal and mortal things. This often comes to a nation or city as a whole entity. On the other hand eternal judgement (which Jesus also speaks of) is a different thing and will always be applied to each individual as they respond to God and His righteous requirements.

So we should not equate the destruction of these cities and people in them as one and the same as eternal judgment. For example as Nineveh repented at the preaching of Jonah, it does not mean every citizen of that city was eternally saved. In like manner when years later Nineveh was destroyed by God's judgment, it is possible that there could have been some that died who inherited eternal life based on their faith in God.


_________________
Dave

 2014/9/17 6:11Profile
TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5388
NC, USA

 Re:

Heydave-

You make a good point- i think often we assume everyone in Ninevah repented- and that may not be the case. As to Sodom, apparently only a very few- likely Lot's family, were Godly in any sense (based on Abraham's negotiation with God).

I did not mean to suggest in my post that Sodom did not get what they deserved. Nasty folks. There are some similar episodes in the book of Judges that are similarly stomach turning.

Guess that gives the phrase "those living in darkness have seen a great Light" special emphasis.

It definitely seems that Jesus was making a distinction between plain old ignorance and **willful** ignorance. The people in Jesus's day who saw what he did but did not repent (like the Pharisees) were willfully ignorant. A dishonest position to serve your own interests. People in Sodom maybe should have known better, but it wasn't like they were being evangelized on a regular basis.


_________________
Todd

 2014/9/17 6:21Profile
Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2039
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

brothagary writes:

Quote:
oraco... What your seeing there is gods election of grace ,god choses not to save those at Sodom as an example of judgment and his sovereign elective choice


I can see how this passage can be quite difficult to interpret for those on both sides of the "debate". If we say that man has no free will and God sovereignly chose not to save Sodom, the question remains, how is it that they would have repented had they seen Christ's miracles? That would seem to imply they could have chosen to repent. And if we say that man has a free will and that Sodom was not saved because they themselves chose not to be saved(though that was not God's desire), the question remains, why did God not allow them to live during the time of Christ's miracles so that they would have been saved?

Heydave writes:
Quote:
Is it possible that we are confusing two different things here and equating them to be one and the same?
What I mean is that the destruction being spoken of is, is a physical destruction of temporal and mortal things. This often comes to a nation or city as a whole entity. On the other hand eternal judgement (which Jesus also speaks of) is a different thing and will always be applied to each individual as they respond to God and His righteous requirements.

So we should not equate the destruction of these cities and people in them as one and the same as eternal judgment. For example as Nineveh repented at the preaching of Jonah, it does not mean every citizen of that city was eternally saved. In like manner when years later Nineveh was destroyed by God's judgment, it is possible that there could have been some that died who inherited eternal life based on their faith in God.


Interesting point brother. The difficulty I'd have in agreeing with you on that is in the fact that Christ is speaking of eternal judgment in that passage, of how it will be more tolerable for certain people than for others in that eternal judgment. Christ says that if those people in OT times would have seen Christ's miracles, they would have repented in sackcloth and ashes. I'd take that to mean a full repentance unto salvation, unless He may be referring to some type of mere reformation of behavior which would have withheld God's temporal judgment.


_________________
Oracio

 2014/9/17 21:46Profile
brothagary
Member



Joined: 2011/10/23
Posts: 1863


 Re:

oraco if mans will is not free it makes no difference ,Ezekiel says that god will cause them to walk in his judgments ,so according to the bible even if mans will is in bondage to his evil desires and emotions ,god can influence him and through the process of regeneration causes man to be willing to obey ,then the words become come true that ,He works in you both to will and to do for his good pleasure!!

 2014/9/18 1:48Profile
brothagary
Member



Joined: 2011/10/23
Posts: 1863


 Re:

Oraco if i can answer your last question ?

it is because deep deep down in the mystery of how god has control and porpoise in in all things ,he chose not to save those at Sodom salvation was not offered to them ,i dont think we really no for sure why ,the bible said he also spoke in parables so that hearing they may not hear and seeing they should not perceive lets they should turn and be saved , he said in you it has been given to no the mystery's but to them it has not,Jesus also said no man can come to me unless he is drawing by the the father. It is interesting to look at the context of this last statement that Jesus made ,,it shows that nether were some of the Pharisees offered salvation .John the baptizer said who warned you to flee from the wrath to come ,implying that he wasn't there for that brood of vipers

 2014/9/18 2:00Profile





©2002-2020 SermonIndex.net
Promoting Genuine Biblical Revival.
Privacy Policy