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staff
Member



Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 1449


 Re:

Hi Budgie
If you are the elect who are the people in the "two at the mill passage where one is taken and the other left?
Who are the people in the "times of Noah and Lot passages"?
who clearly aren't living during or after a time like the "great tribulation"
Yours Staff

 2014/10/19 12:18Profile
budgie
Member



Joined: 2011/2/25
Posts: 266


 Re: Hello staff member I am so glad you asked this question

There is so much to your question so I will answer it in sections, first Noah.

Mat 24:37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mat 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
Mat 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Most people focus on the verses as if it is speaking of the wicked people being taken away, but this verse is speaking of Noah and his family being taken away.
Jesus is saying that these people were so busy with life up until the day that Noah entered the Ark and these people did not know until the flood came and they saw Noah and his family taken away in the Ark.
I will prove this to you using scripture.
Mat 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away;G142 G537 so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
This G142 ( took them all away) in the Greek is made up of the Greek word G142
First G142 αἴρω airō pronounced ah'ee-ro
A primary verb; to lift; by implication to take up or away; figuratively to raise (the voice), keep in suspense (the mind); specifically to sail away (that is, weigh anchor); by Hebraism (compare [H5375]) to expiate sin: - away with, bear (up), carry, lift up,

DID YOU JUST SEE THAT
It literally means to lift anchor so as to sail away, to keep suspended.

It does not mean to drown or to be destroyed, it is quite the opposite.

The wicked people who drowned literally saw Noah and all of His family sail away to safety while they themselves were killed.
It will be the same when Jesus Comes, people will be so busy with their own lives until the Day that Jesus Comes, the Dead will be raised, those alive in Christ will have their bodies changed and the people will see us ascending to meet Jesus into the clouds, they will be left on earth for Judgement, there is no escape or deliverance just like the people that saw Noah and his family sail away to safety.

THE SAME GREEK WORD G 142 IS USED IN ACTS IN TWO VERSE REGARDING PAUL SAILING IN THE BOAT.

Act 27:13 And when the south wind blew softly, supposing that they had obtained their purpose, loosing thence, they sailed close by Crete.
Act 27:13 And when the south wind blew softly,supposing that they had obtained their purpose, loosing G142 G788 thence, they sailed close by Crete.

Act 27:17 Which when they had taken up, they used helps, undergirding the ship; and, fearing lest they should fall into the quicksands, strake sail, and so were driven.
Act 27:17 Which when they had taken up,G142 they used helps, undergirding the ship; and, fearing lest they should fall into the quicksands strake sail, and so were driven.

IT MEANS TO FLOAT AND SAIL

The verses could be written as follows for the most truthful translation

Mat 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood the wicked people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah and all of his family entered into the ark,
Mat 24:39 And the wicked people did not know until the flood came, and then they saw Noah and all of His family lift anchor and sail away, it was too late, they could not enter the boat; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

LET US STUDY AND SEE THE TRUTH
Jesus is coming and we will lift anchor and sail to meet Him in the clouds after the Resurrection.

 2014/10/20 7:59Profile
staff
Member



Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 1449


 Re:

Hi Budgie
I think you are missing my point yes they were so busy with life Marrying buying selling etc but the point is that they could buy sell eat drink and get on with everyday life.But during the great tribulation normal life is not going on at all and after the tribulation the earth will not be able to go on as normal.Again during the tribulation we wont be able to carry on as normal so the if you look at the two at the mill verse
One of the women will be taken whether the saved or not saved it doesnt matter because during the tribulation you wont be able to any of these activities or if you can you will need to take the mark.
40"Then there will be two men in the field; one will be taken and one will be left. 41"Two women will be grinding at the mill; one will be taken and one will be left.
Yours Staff

 2014/10/20 18:58Profile
staff
Member



Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 1449


 Re:

Hi Budgie
Just a post script is that Jesus said as it was in the days of lot and noah.how was it in the days of lot and noah?To add to the previous post where their was normal sinful and non sinful living Judgement didnt happen til Righteous Lot and Noah were take out;Thats the same I think that the world will be given a credible warning that Christ is coming to Judge and Judgement will happen after the righteous are taken out.
So these passages higlight 3 things or as Jesus says "as"
1.Normal living
2.Judgement after the righteous are gone
3.This Judgement is immediate
Yours Staff

 2014/10/20 19:19Profile
TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5422
NC, USA

 Re:

From Luke 17:

"34 I tell you, on that night two people will be in one bed; one will be taken and the other left. 35 Two women will be grinding grain together; one will be taken and the other left.” [36]

37 “Where, Lord?” they asked.

He replied, “Where there is a dead body, there the vultures will gather.”
_______________

The persons taken are killed. In other words, the wicked are taken, not the righteous. No rapture here.


_________________
Todd

 2014/10/20 20:52Profile
budgie
Member



Joined: 2011/2/25
Posts: 266


 Re: My reply to staff member

Hello Staff Member
I dont think that Jesus was missing the point when He said that He is Coming after the End of the Tribulation and that it will be as the days of Noah and that life will have some normality.
One must remember that Jesus said that the Tribulation was finished, History has always revealed that after wars, life continues and usually there is peace and celebration.
After World War 1 and after World war 2 people celebrated and married, the war was ended.
After floods and cyclones end there is a returning back to life and people do get married and work, the floods have ended.
As to the Tribulation life still exists, there has to be work for people to survive for 3 ½ years, are you saying that there is no electricity, no fuel, no shops, no work, no food produced, no clothing made, no rubbish picked up, no police or fire or ambulances, no hospitals, no doctors.
For war much is needed.
As to celebrations after the Tribulation look what happens after the 2 witnesses die at the end of the 3 ½ years of Tribulation.
Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
Rev 11:9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
Rev 11:10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
Sounds like a party.
As to the period during the Tribulation there are many that are wealthy and doing well, much business and prosperity, look at the following verses that speak of the time of Tribulation regarding the great wealthy city and those who traded with her.
Rev 18:3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.

Rev 18:7 How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow.

Rev 18:11 And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandise any more:
Rev 18:12 The merchandise of gold, and silver, and precious stones, and of pearls, and fine linen, and purple, and silk, and scarlet, and all thyine wood, and all manner vessels of ivory, and all manner vessels of most precious wood, and of brass, and iron, and marble,
Rev 18:13 And cinnamon, and odours, and ointments, and frankincense, and wine, and oil, and fine flour, and wheat, and beasts, and sheep, and horses, and chariots, and slaves, and souls of men.
Rev 18:14 And the fruits that thy soul lusted after are departed from thee, and all things which were dainty and goodly are departed from thee, and thou shalt find them no more at all.
I dont believe Jesus was wrong
Jesus said He will Come after the Tribulation has ended and that this time will be as the days of Noah
I will Trust Jesus is declaring the Truth
I believe.

 2014/10/20 23:06Profile
budgie
Member



Joined: 2011/2/25
Posts: 266


 Re: Replt to TMK

Many guess the verses of being taken as being the wicked that are taken but do not study the Greek to see what Jesus really said.
I will show you this Truth using scripture

Mat 24:40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Mat 24:41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Mat 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
Mat 24:43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
Mat 24:44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

These verses are clearly talking about the Day of Jesus Coming.
There is a very special word that I want to look at in verses 40 and 41
The word TAKEN and the word LEFT.
First I want to look at this taken word as it is really misunderstood, it is the Greek Word G3880 paralambanō pronounced par-al-am-ban'-o
From G3844 and G2983; to receive near, that is, associate with oneself (in any familiar or intimate act or relation); by analogy to assume an office; figuratively to learn: - receive, take (unto, with).

It is used in many verses (but the focus is not on removing) but on taking so as to receive to one’s self, in an intimate act or relation here are some verses that show what I mean
Mat 1:20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to (take unto thee Mary thy wife:) for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.
Mat 1:24 Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and (took unto him his wife):
Joh 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own( received )him not.
Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and (receive you unto myself); that where I am, there ye may be also.
1Co 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you (the gospel) which I preached unto you, which also (ye have received), and wherein ye stand;
Col 2:6 As ye have therefore (received Christ Jesus the Lord), so walk ye in him:
1Th 2:13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye (received the word of God) which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.
Heb 12:28 Wherefore we (receiving a kingdom) which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:
The strong focus is on taking or receiving to oneself as in Marriage, So it is when Jesus Comes, He will take us or Receive us to Himself as the Bride and Groom.

The word LEFT is another Greek word that means to leave behind or to forsake.

Mat 19:29 And every one that hath (forsaken) houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.
Mat 22:25 Now there were with us seven brethren: and the first, when he had married a wife, deceased, and, having no issue, (left his wife) unto his brother:
Mat 26:44 And he (left them), and went away again, and prayed the third time, saying the same words.
Mar 1:18 And straightway they (forsook their nets), and followed him.
Mar 1:20 And straightway he called them: and (they left their father Zebedee in the ship) with the hired servants, and went after him.
Mar 10:29 And Jesus answered and said, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath (left house), or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my sake, and the gospel's,
Mar 14:50 And (they all forsook him, and fled.)
Luk 5:11 And when they had brought their ships to land, (they forsook all), and followed him.
Luk 10:30 And Jesus answering said, A certain man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves, which stripped him of his raiment, and wounded him, (and departed, leaving him half dead).

The verses in Matthew can be read as follows.

Mat 24:40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be received intimately to Christ, and the other forsaken and left behind.
Mat 24:41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be received intimately to Christ, and the other forsaken and left behind.
Mat 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
Mat 24:43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
Mat 24:44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

So it is true, when Jesus Comes in the Clouds He will take us and receive us to himself, we will be appointed an office, but those that are forsaken or left behind will be judged, the same as the story of Noah, the same as when Jesus comes to earth in Revelations 20.
All the Prophetic books speak of the same, God delivers on the Day of Judgement.
Jesus Comes and receives us to Himself in the Resurrection, those left behind on earth who followed the Beast will face Judgement, with the beast.
Jesus really did give perfect Harmonious examples as to his Coming.
When did Jesus say that He would Come, after the Tribulation not during.
Jesus will gather us all to Himself from the 4 points of Heaven and the earth.

 2014/10/20 23:11Profile
staff
Member



Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 1449


 Re:

Hi Budgie
its amazing that Jesus gave two examples where the righteous are taken out before judgement comes and you choose to skip over that fact as it isnt there!
Urs staff
p.s Jesus was asked about the Timing of his coming and he answer that question

 2014/10/21 2:19Profile
staff
Member



Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 1449


 Re:

Hi Budgie
on the other points not as important the two witness'can b celebrated because its at the end of the first half of the seventh week.
This is not a small war like ww1 or 2 it isnt even a war but judgements on the earth of all sorts.the earth clearly could.nt rcover
I promised myself i would stick to talking about Elijah because its something new when talking about the rapture .Elijah always the forerunner before the day of the Lord.
Even if we take Elijah coming during the great tribulation like u say
then ur timeline looks like this .3/12 yrs where Elijah preaches then the rapture where iscthe time for the earth to recover ?? Urs staff

 2014/10/21 2:39Profile
budgie
Member



Joined: 2011/2/25
Posts: 266


 Re: To staff member

Thanks Staff member for your reply

I have never yet once skipped over the facts that twice Jesus speaks of deliverance before Judgement, if you read them all you will see that I have actually totally agreed with it because Jesus said He would deliver us at the Day of His Coming after the Tribulation, after the signs in the Heavens, I even stated that this is the Resurrection of the dead.
Jesus said very clearly that He Comes after the Tribulation.

You said that the 2 witnesses die at the end of the first half of the week and the Tribulation has not yet come, they clearly die between the 6th and 7th Trumpet and that means by your statement that all of the 3 1/2 year Tribulation takes place right between the 6th and 7th Trumpet.

Do you agree with that statement of yours?

Also can you please give me a verse where Jesus is speaking where He said He is Coming before the Tribulation as I cannot find one?

 2014/10/21 3:39Profile





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