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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : What is the rapture and what happens before the rapture

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staff
Member



Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 1521


 Re:

Hi Budgie
On the first half of the post I agree that the Great Tribulation is clearly in fact only 3 1/2 yrs long.
I think that both Witnesses have the Spirit of Elijah;
I dont think that the commonly held view that the witnesses are Elijah and Enoch or that they are Elijah and Moses are correct.This incorrect view is based on two things.
One the body of Moses was hidden and Enoch was translated and it is appointed man to die once scripture.Also the powers of the two witnesses seems to point to Moses and Moses and Elijah were on the Mount Of Tranfiguration.

The scripture when Jesus says as in the"days of Lot and Noah"
represent a problem for your view that is if you view the Lot and Noah scripture as the rapture.
Remember one was taken and one left but when they were taken everything in the world was going on as normal,eating drinking marrying and crucially buying and selling which is one of the things the AntiChrist controlled with the mark of the beast.Two were at the mill and one was taken.Both these persons would have had to have the mark of the beast to be working for instance.Also there is no sign of disruption to normal life at all.The time Jesus is talking about here is definitely not a time at the end of a worst time on earth ever namely the 3 1/2 yrs of the great tribulation.
As tho the second half of the post is more complicated Yours Staff

 2014/10/16 18:47Profile
staff
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Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 1521


 Re:

Hi KingJimmy
A quick explanation is that Elijah is translated by Chariots.
Remember the Hymn Swing low sweet Chariot based on Elijah they understood that Angels were coming to take them to heaven even back in the 1860s they connected to the rapture.

Swing low, sweet chariot
Coming for to carry me home,
Swing low, sweet chariot,
Coming for to carry me home.

I looked over Jordan, and what did I see
Coming for to carry me home?
A band of angels coming after me,
Coming for to carry me home.

But thats not scripture I know but it does show that it is a long held belief
John the baptist is a transitional figure between the old and the new.The Church begins with John not Jesus because what I said about John and Pentecost before.Elijah started the age and Elijah will end the age.The age will end with the rapture.
Mount Carmel is also the a type of the rapture in the sense that everything was consummed and brought up to heaven.Elijah will preach that Jesus is coming again soon and this time he is coming to judge,time is running out.......you better watch out.
You can then see why the people that dwell on the earth were so happy they sent presents when the two witnesses were killed.They died and nothing happened Yippee lets party sort of thing....It is at this time the rapture happens and not alone do the two witnesses rise but everyone else as well.Thats why dread falls on everyone because they are after witnessing the rapture and the witnesses were correct.Wrongly people think the rapture is in the twinkling of an eye.No people are changed in the twinkling but the rapture takes a few seconds or minutes.
The Holy Spirit delebrately leaves Elijah John and The witnesses as mysterious figures because he is sending a signpost saying study me their is a scriptural masterpiece here find it look it out I want to show you something great,
Yours Staff

 2014/10/16 19:14Profile
budgie
Member



Joined: 2011/2/25
Posts: 266


 Re: Thanks staff member for your reply

Thanks Staff member, many get caught up with the 3 1/2 years of Tribulation and do not study the days still on earth that follow the 3 1/2 years.
It is important to remember these following vital points.
1. One is that the Treaty between peoples is only for a period of 7 years then it is over and life goes on.
2. The Beast only has power from God to wreak havoc against believers for 3 1/2 years then life goes on
3. The two witnesses only have power for 3 1/2 years to torment unbelievers then after that they lay dead in the streets for 3 1/2 days and are then raised, people are celebrating their death during the three 1/2 days, after this their is no witnesses to torment the unbelievers
4. The gentiles are only given power for 3 1/2 years to trample the Holy City and then life goes on
5. The believers that fled into the wilderness are only protected for 3 1/2 years and then the remnant return to Jerusalem
6. Jesus states that there are days that go on after the end of the Tribulation and that is the time when the signs are seen in the heavens, life is still going on
7. People are thinking that there is a time of peace because there are no witnesses inflicting judgement, no longer gentiles trampling the city, the beast has lost his power, there is a type of peace but it is not true
8. Joel talks very clearly about this period of time when the signs are seen in the heavens and there are many things happening, the armies are starting to gather against Jerusalem.
9. God puts it into the hearts of the 10 kings to destroy the whore city that has ridden on the back of the beast on the way to Jerusalem, this is clearly told in Revelations

If one were to look at this as an Islamic view then the armies would destroy Mecca and Medina and saudia Arabia on the way to Jerusalem because of the wealth that they have accrued while all other Islamic countries have been smashed.

We are seeing this happening right now, Saudia Arabia, mecca and Medina are full of wealth and prospering while Syria, Iraq, Lebanon, Libya, Sudan, Afghanistan are being literally smashed.

Isaiah and Zecharia also have much to say about what is happening in the middle east after the Tribulation and during the time when the signs are seen in the Heavens

One must always remember that the Bible is a very strong middle eastern focused book.

I do believe by what scripture says that there is a time of false peace after the Tribulation ends. Jesus stated very clearly that if that Tribulation did not end there would be no believers alive on this earth, but the truth is that there will still be believers alive at His Coming.
Jesus stated that He would be Coming after these signs in Heaven, we do not know the day or hour but we do know the signs before hand

 2014/10/16 22:42Profile
budgie
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Joined: 2011/2/25
Posts: 266


 Re: To staff member

To Staff Member,
In short what I am saying is this
Jesus said very clearly that after the 3 1/2 year Tribulation ends there will be signs in the heavens, this happens after the 3 1/2 years is completed, no more Great tribulation the Beast no longer has his power to torment as his 3 1/2 years of power is ended, he is involved in the armies that are gathering at Jerusalem, and Joel clearly states that this gathering of armies takes place during the signs in the heavens, which Jesus very clearly described as happening after the end of the Tribulation,the believers in the wilderness are no longer protected because the 3 1/2 years of protection is also over, they were protected from Satan for only 3 1/2 years they don't just sit in the desert waiting after this time, it states that a remnant return to Jerusalem,the holy city of Jerusalem is no longer trampled by the gentiles, their 3 1/2 years is over.
Jesus very clearly stated that He will be coming to gather His Elect from the 4 points of Heaven and the 4 points of Earth to Himself when He comes, this certainly sounds like the Resurrection and being seized that takes place in 1 Thess 4 at the Time of the Resurrection of the dead and bodies on earth being changed.
Jesus brings with Him those who have died in Christ and Jesus raises the bodies of those that are dead in Christ incorruptible.
Sounds like the First Resurrection where all those dead in Christ from Heaven and all the dead in Christ on Earth and the living in Christ on earth are United with Him forever those in the Resurrection are Blessed and will reign with Christ forever.

 2014/10/16 23:51Profile
Lysa
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Joined: 2008/10/25
Posts: 3414
This world is not my home anymore.

 Re:


All,

I was reading today in Matt 24 where Jesus said in verse 21-22: "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened."

That has never stood out to me before, it seems straight forward that there will be "the elect" going (from beginning to end) through the great tribulation.

So according to the Word, the return of Christ will be afterwards.


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Lisa

 2014/10/18 17:42Profile
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Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 1521


 Re:

Hi Lysa
Dont think its as simple as that.Who are the elect?
Is the Noah and Lot scriptures about the Rapture?
If so ...... it doesnt marry up with the times mentioned in Matt 24.In one its the worst time ever that needs to be shortened in the other they were living freely buying,selling etc
Yours Staff

 2014/10/18 19:01Profile
budgie
Member



Joined: 2011/2/25
Posts: 266


 Re: Hello Lysa

Hi Lysa it is as simple as you read, when the Greek New Testament was written it was written to everyday Greek people who understood the language, they did not have to get a degree to understand, Jesus simply spoke the simple and clear truth, He told us when He is Coming.
You hit the nail on the head, yes it is a Tribulation that cuts off at the 3 1/2 years, it is finished, when you study the shortened word in greek it means to literally be cut off.
The Tribulation ends when the Beast loses his 3 1/2 yr power, the gentiles no longer have power to trample the city, the people in the wilderness are only protected for 3 1/2 years from satan then they return to Jerusalem, the 2 witnesses that persecuted the nonbelievers are gone.
If Tribulataion ends then peace again comes, the same as the peace before the Tribulation.
Jesus states that He is Coming after the signs are seen in the Heavens which happen some time after the End of the Tribulation.
It will be like the days of Noah after the Tribulation Ends but it is only a very short period.
There will be a Peace but it will be a false peace.
As for the Rapture it is a word that means to seize and it happens after the resurrection of the dead and after the bodies are changed.
Jesus and Paul used the gather word more than Paul used the seize word once, Paul used the gather word in 2 Thessalonians referring to us being gathered to Jesus.
Paul said that there is an order to the Resurrection
Jesus first and afterward all of those in Christ at His Coming when He will appear a second time.
This is the First Immortal Resurrection as spoken of in Revelations.
I will trust the words of Jesus.
Also there are scriptures that call us the Elect in Christ, I know I am Chosen by Jesus.
Keep it simple Lysa

 2014/10/19 6:23Profile
budgie
Member



Joined: 2011/2/25
Posts: 266


 Re: Hello Lysa heres a good verse regarding us as the elect

Praise God I am of the Elect
Rom 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Rom 8:31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
Rom 8:32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
Rom 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
Rom 8:34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
Rom 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

Jesus is Coming Just as He said
Praise God

 2014/10/19 6:35Profile
TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5533
NC, USA

 Re:

The total destruction and massacre of Jerusalem and its people in 70 AD was great tribulation, worse than the world had ever seen.

Why is it so hard to understand that Jesus was talking about that event which would occur within the lifetime of his hearers?


_________________
Todd

 2014/10/19 9:59Profile
RogerB
Member



Joined: 2007/4/5
Posts: 253
Bruceton TN

 Re: Rapture?

I read where the false Christ is cast down to earth and appears to the world as the Messiah. Most people will believe he is the real deal and go visit him. The churches have not prepared the congregation for this deception. The oil in their lamps is mostly snake oil and as Carter Conlon said, it probably won't light. Jesus warns us that when we hear that He is in the desert to stay inside, don't go out. The two witnesses witness against this false christ in Jerusalem.

Many will wonder why they weren't raptured or carried off to heaven. It's a time of apostasy on the weak in the church. The internet sermon sites have done a disservice to the church. Ministers get sermons there. Most all hear the same sermon every Sunday. What a shame! This false messiah will perform miracles to deceive. Prepare yourselves. Take the lesson from Amos. Stay away from the Bethels.. (House of God)... Come to me says Jesus. We are near that time. Satan will only have a short reign, 5 months to be exact and it will be a spiritual battle. Deception deception deception.

After all he is the master. It looks as though he must have been the High Priest of the world before the age of flesh. He was covered with the same stones as the Levitical priests.

Be very aware of deception. Crack open the book. Start with the minor prophets.


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James R Barnes

 2014/10/19 10:16Profile





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