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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : What is the rapture and what happens before the rapture

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psalm1
Member



Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 1230


 Re:

Quote;"""They believe that God has to bring an end to the present church age so He can again deal with the Jewish people. """

The AC is given power from heaven to kill all the saints.
This is problematic for midtribbers,postribbers and historicist/catholics.

Dispensation would be a bracket of time (adam in the garden)
(time of judges) (time of captivity in egypt) etc. No boogey man there.
However the historicists would have major scriptural roadblocks with the mark of the beast/vs beheading,the tribulation such as the world has never seen or ever will see again,the fiery hail from the sky and the stinging locusts etc,etc.

The rapture is simply the groom fetching the bride. Amazing that the only group teaching this Groom/bride event is pretrib. The rest of the theories center and major on the "GT"
The only group that can honestly say they are waiting for Jesus the GROOM to fetch the bride is, again,us pretribbers.
We are commanded to watch and wait.Those that malighn the pretrib doctrine are essentially saying "He is not coming back anytime soon" This is dangerous ground.

 2014/10/14 18:40Profile
psalm1
Member



Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 1230


 Re:

"""The theology of the pre-tribulational rapture is built ENTIRELY on the idea that there are "two peoples of God" with "two different sets of promises" and "two different destinies." """

Anytime I see something like this it reminds me of the many times believers will take small cross sections and try to use them to define other believers.
The pretrib doctrine is scriptural.
Brethren taking the word of God,systematically applying the facts and recording what is, and what can not be.
postrib is impossible. The Ac kills all the saints,and the bride returns to heaven,not earth.(10 virgin parable)
IOW,show me this uturn somewhere in scripture. Show me where,after the judgement,the family of God IMMEDIATELY returns to the destroyed location. ...so postrib is eliminated as a candidate.
Same holds true for historicist. the impossibilities turn those theories into rabbit trails.
Ask yourself"why is that all theories other than pretrib try to use vague accusations against "origins" or "theologians" instead of biblical exegesis?
Just my opinion.

 2014/10/14 18:59Profile
staff
Member



Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 1521


 Re:

Hi King Jimmy,
Firstly I was trying to show a different way of studying the subject a way that I believe is from God.
Typology in the bible is very important if you throw out typology then you have to throw out verses with "Lamb of God" and typology of the temple for example.God uses typology all the time.
In the verse below we see that although John the Baptist has died we see that Jesus says "Elijah is coming and he will restore all things"So although he goes on to say that John was indeed Elijah we Know that Elijah comes again and restores all things in the future.We see that the Elijah to come to restore all thing is not John The Baptist.
Then we ask what does this Elijah restore that is to come?
To find out what this restoration will look like in the future we have to study carefully what the past Elijah's restored(namely John the Baptist and Elijah the thisbite)
When we look carefully at Elijah unique role we find that this Elijah is linked to the rapture;
.......................................................
Matthew 17:9
As they were coming down from the mountain, Jesus commanded them, saying, “Tell the vision to no one until the Son of Man has risen from the dead.” and His disciples asked Him, “Why then do the scribes say that Elijah must come first?” And He answered and said, “Elijah is coming and will restore all things; but I say to you that Elijah already came, and they did not recognize him, but did to him whatever they wished. So also the Son of Man is going to suffer at their hands.” Then the disciples understood that He had spoken to them about John the Baptist.
.......................................................

The problem is that you are asking me what happens at the end of the movie without looking at the movie yourself,
I think if you take the time to corralate what the work of Elijah the thisbite and John the Baptist was you will see the ending of the movie yourself
Yours Staff

 2014/10/14 19:11Profile
staff
Member



Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 1521


 Re:

Hi Psalm1,
I think that thats a fair comment whether you are a post or pre trib believer that the Post tribulation view does not preach the Bride coming back for his Bride or at the best not with the same enthuasism or passion.
Yours Staff

 2014/10/14 19:19Profile
timg
Member



Joined: 2008/8/23
Posts: 100


 Re: What is the rapture and what happens before the rapture

Quite frankly I think the subject of the rapture is a massive distraction from the clear teachings of scriptures. I can not put my finger on the power button fast enough when I hear famous preachers on the radio begin to speculate on "end times". It has become a division among His church. It has become a podium of pride for those who have some secret understanding of what is in no way clearly taught.
He is coming back! Be ready. That is what is clearly taught.

 2014/10/14 19:27Profile
psalm1
Member



Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 1230


 Re:

Quote;"There is nothing in the story of Elijah that connects me with the idea of the Second Coming of the Lord, and the ascending of the saints to meet the Lord as He descends. Nor is there any verse in the Bible that makes a connection to that story and the return of Christ."

It think the confusion is in trying to force the rapture into the same event as Jesus' return with the saints on white horses.
You need to study this concept first,Then the bride and groom, and you will see the groom does not go to war with his bride in tow.(ask yourself why she is called the wife immediately before they mount the horses of war)

But as for the very scriptural rapture/elijah thinggy,just off the top of my head we see both rising alive to heaven without Jesus and a army on white horses. We also see Elijah continuing on to heaven as in the pretrib model.
Several things are absent a) a destroyed earth b) destroyed marine life c)no beheading for not wearing a mark d) a mark in order to buy... and so on.

Kinda messes up postrib if they wanted to draw a type/antitype picture,but that is how it is,once you test the pretrib model against the word.....it all falls in place.
Shalom my friend

 2014/10/14 19:28Profile
psalm1
Member



Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 1230


 Re: those who have some secret understanding

Hello timg,
I know what you are saying,but for me it is just the opposite.
I find the mysteries of the bible riveting,and "intriguing"

I love hearing others concepts of what they are understanding as well as my own opinions of those parts of scripture.

I will also say that ministers, in my opinion, should teach the rapture,as that was the setting of the 10 virgin story.IOW someone told them to go wait for Jesus and they all obeyed.
Now a days nobody is giving that command.(enter other theories against his imminent return)

 2014/10/14 19:38Profile
psalm1
Member



Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 1230


 Re:

Quote"The problem is that you are asking me what happens at the end of the movie without looking at the movie yourself,
I think if you take the time to corralate what the work of Elijah the thisbite and John the Baptist was you will see the ending of the movie yourself
Yours Staff"

Exactly!
We pretribs hear all the time how we got this or that through some corrupted devil writing or some silly mess.
Isn't it interesting that those same folks have a mysterious force field preventing them from exploring the pretrib verses?

 2014/10/14 19:44Profile
psalm1
Member



Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 1230


 Re:

Staffs verse:"......Elijah is coming and will restore all things; but I say to you that Elijah already came, and they did not recognize him, but did to him whatever they wished......"

I kinda got a chuckle out of this when i realised that after over 20 years of debate and study I realised I have never once ,that i can remember,noticed anyone other than a pretribber that had a "revelation" on a hidden truth.

Not trying to be haughty or ugly but we own this dimension big time. LOL!

 2014/10/14 19:57Profile
KingJimmy
Member



Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

Staff,

I think you are a little confused about how typology in the Bible works. Bibles "types" are only apparent after a revelation has been clearly made known, of which when we look back, we see patterns that emerge that mirror what happened when Christ came.

It's like a story in any book or movie, where there are things that foreshadow the climax of the book, but they are not clearly seen until after the climax happens. Prior to the climax, you may see hints of things to come, but it is only after the grand reveal that you "see" what was always "hidden in plain sight,"

The problem with arguing whatever it is you are from Elijah, which I still don't get, and I used to be a pre-tribber myself, is that you are trying to prove the doctrine of the rapture from a "type." In actuality, types work the other way around. Doctrines prove types and make types clear... not the other way around.

For example, Paul teaches Adam is a type of Christ, or that Abraham and Isaacs relationship was a type of death/resurrection. These types wouldn't have been clear had Christ not come. The revelation of Jesus was necessary to make the types of the past known.

So, as I see every reference in the New Testament to the "coming" of the Lord as a reference to his literal return to the Earth to rule and to reign for a thousand years, forgive me if I find your appeal to types to be unconvincing. But if you could show me explicit teaching regarding a pre tribulational rapture, then perhaps I might see the types you reference more clearly.


_________________
Jimmy H

 2014/10/14 21:47Profile





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