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budgie
Member



Joined: 2011/2/25
Posts: 266


 Re: Hello staff member

You stated the following
As you know their is no verse to say that the rapture is
after the tribulation either.
That quote by you is not true as we know clearly that the Rapture is the last thing that takes place after the resurrection of the Dead as spoken in 1 Thess and we know in scripture precisely where the First resurrection takes place and that is in rev 20 at the Coming of Christ.
We also know in scripture that the resurrection takes place after the Trumpet of God sounds and we know in scripture where that happens.
Mat_24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
And we know that the Resurrection takes place after the Coming of Christ and we know in scripture where Jesus states He is Coming
Immediately after the tribulation shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
And we know that it is the last trumpet sounds, not the first, not the second but the last
1Co_15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
Could not be any clearer in scripture.

Why don't you have a realistic and truthful study in scripture especially what the scripture states clearly must happen before the rapture.
Study all of the events in 1 Thess 4;13 to 18
The rapture is the last event after all.
Is Jesus the only man that has been raised in the Immortal body as scripture clearly states?
Or is Paul a liar?
Paul states that all in Christ will be raised immortal at His Coming, one singular event in the History of mankind as Rev 20 states by God Himself.

 2014/10/31 5:44Profile
staff
Member



Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 1419


 Re:

Hi Budgie
If you dont want to answer these questions that your choice and I respect that but perhaps other posters might know the answer...
A .If the two witnesses minister in the 42 months of the 2nd half of the 7yrs and the Antichrist has Authority for the same 42months.How does he kill them when his Authority is lapsed.?
B.If the two witnesses and the 2nd half of the tribulation are the same time why do we have Judgements happening after the tribulation is supposedly over ?
c.How can the world be rejoicing and partying when immediately after the tribulation the sun is not shining and the moon darkened?
As you know in regard the resurrection arguement is a well trodden arguement that pre tribbers and post tribbers have discussed endlessly.The only thing I can add is the When the two witnesses are raptured what resurrection are they part off?
I look at this rapture subject from this approach.What does Elijah do when he comes?What is his role and how do we find this out?Why is he associated with the time of 42months?
The subjects of timing of trumpets etc and the ressurection debate usually bring nothing new to the table in understanding the rapture.Im not saying they are not important but they have been debated to a standstill.
The important thing about the timing of the rapture in my view is the effect it has on our views on other things "extreme persecution gospel"for the post tribulation and "easy time Gospel" for the pre tribulation view.
Yours Staff




 2014/10/31 17:28Profile
davidc
Member



Joined: 2010/8/15
Posts: 272
France

 Re: Jesus, The Resurection


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david

 2014/11/4 3:41Profile
davidc
Member



Joined: 2010/8/15
Posts: 272
France

 Re:


Budgie, my brother
I think that you are approaching your "doctrine of the resurection" from the wrong view. You are a little like Martha, who when told by Jesus
"Your brother shall rise again" John 11 v23
Reply with all your knowlege of scripture
" Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day. v24

But Jesus wanted her to know and believe the truth:

Joh 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
Joh 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

For us, who beleive, the Resurrection is not a doctrine to be wrested from scripture; but is a Person, the Lord Jesus Christ Himself.
Jesus' reply in the above two verses, firstly prevent our understanding of resurection without this faith that He is the Resurection, and secondly, it details the final rising of the saints who sleep in Him, and the rapture of those who remain ( as 1 Thess details).
Verse 5 is also the key to it all, as these are people whom Jesus loved

Just my thoughts

David


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david

 2014/11/4 3:42Profile
budgie
Member



Joined: 2011/2/25
Posts: 266


 Re: hello staff member

Sorry about the delay in getting back to you.
I would love to answer your questions.
A .If the two witnesses minister in the 42 months of the 2nd half of the 7yrs and the Antichrist has Authority for the same 42months.How does he kill them when his Authority is lapsed.?

My answer.
First I must remind you Staff that the first 6 trumpets have taken place before they are killed and raised from the dead. You staff member yourself stated that the Tribulation starts after they are raised, so by your own words the first 6 trumpets are all events that happen before the Tribulation, You are stating very clearly that the first six trumpets happen before the Tribulation and that certainly does not fit very well.
The answer to your question is really very simple, the Beast has the authority to kill the 2 witnesses at the end of his reign of power and at the same time as the 2 witnesses have finished their ministry, at that very moment that God himself has prophesied, the 2 witnesses are killed and God himself has prophesied that it happens just before the 7th and last Trumpet when Jesus Comes to trample the winepress of God.

The 2 witnesses are killed and arise just before the next verses.
Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Rev 11:16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,

Rev 11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
Rev 11:19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

No mention of a 3 1/2 year period between the 6th and 7th trumpet.

God is very specific as to what happens after the 2 witnesses are raised.

Jesus comes to reward His servants and Trample the winepress of the wrath of God, this is so clearly described in Rev 19 and 20.

The Bride is not made ready and not clothed and the wedding does not take place until after the Whore city is destroyed by the 10 kings just before Christ Comes and the First Resurrection takes place.

 2014/11/12 5:14Profile
budgie
Member



Joined: 2011/2/25
Posts: 266


 Re: To staff member

Now I will answer your second question.
B.If the two witnesses and the 2nd half of the tribulation are the same time why do we have Judgements happening after the tribulation is supposedly over ?

Not sure what Judgements you are referring to as God Himself stated very clearly that the 7th Trumpet sounds soon after the 2 witnesses are raised and what happens after the 2 witnesses arise is that the Kingdoms become Christs and He comes to Reward His servants, Jesus Himself tramples the winepress of the Wrath of God which again is so clearly described in rev 19 and 20 when Jesus Comes and defeats the Antichrist and seizes satan for 1000 years.
This is at the Time of the first resurrection, those in the resurrection are the army of heaven and included with them are those from the Tribulation.

Again when one does a deep study on the seal, trumpet and bowl, one can see that the 6th and 7th seal, trumpet and bowl overlap and speak of the time of Christ coming.

It is completely impossible for them to be Chronological.

 2014/11/12 5:24Profile
budgie
Member



Joined: 2011/2/25
Posts: 266


 Re: To staff member

Now I will answer your 3rd question.
c.How can the world be rejoicing and partying when immediately after the tribulation the sun is not shining and the moon darkened?

It is very clear that you have not studied all that Jesus says regarding the time after the Tribulation, you are only looking at Matthew 24.
Jesus stated clearly in Matthew the following.

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Jesus was referring to this as a sequential event that would happen next after the Tribulation has been finished, but Jesus stated more on this in Mark.

Mar 13:24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
Mar 13:25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
Mar 13:26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
Mar 13:27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

Jesus very clearly stated that there are days that exist after the Tribulation has finished, BUT Jesus said clearly in those days, this is Plural, we don't know how many days, BUT Jesus said in those days the Signs will appear in the Heavens.

Is it 5 days? Is it 10 Days? is it 25 Days?

We are not told BUT Jesus said that it will happen and when it does we are to look up for our Redemption draws near and is at the door.

Jesus also said
Mar 13:28 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When her branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is near:
Mar 13:29 So ye in like manner, when ye shall see these things come to pass, know that it is nigh, even at the doors.
Mar 13:30 Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.

Jesus Himself even stated this about that Day of His Coming after these signs.
Mar 13:32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

It is important to keep scripture in harmony, it is very clear in Mark the sequence of events and this all aligns with Matthew and Luke and Revelations.

 2014/11/12 5:35Profile
budgie
Member



Joined: 2011/2/25
Posts: 266


 Re: To staff member

Now I will answer your remaining questions
STAFF you said this
The only thing I can add is the When the two witnesses are raptured what resurrection are they part off?
God is very clear as to when the First Resurrection takes place and who is in that First Resurrection in rev19 and 20.

Paul also is very clear that no man but Christ has ever been raised in the history of mankind in an immortal body that Jesus was raised in, Jesus was the First and Paul states that all in Christ will be raised in that same immortal body when Jesus Comes.

The Bible does not say that the 2 witnesses are raised in the immortal body, it just states that they were raised from the dead.

Thousands of people have been raised from the dead, BUT to say that any of them were raised in the immortal body would make Paul a liar and the Word of God to not be true.

I will believe what Paul and Jesus and God stated, that Jesus was the First and Afterward at His Coming all will be raised in that same Immortal body and be like Jesus, You must remember that the Word of God states that this Resurrection takes place only at the Last Trumpet and it happens at the one same twinkling of an eye, NOT over many years.

Again Paul states very clearly in 1 Thess 4 that the seizing(rapture) is the last thing to take place in the sequence of all the events and it happens after the Resurrection of the Dead.

It is so important to have a healthy and true biblical doctrine of what the rapture physically is and when it physically happens.

Biblically speaking the rapture is NOT the Resurrection, it is the seizing that takes place after the Resurrection.

God stated himself when the First Resurrection of Immortality takes place and who is in that Resurrection.

I will not dare argue with God, my theory must depend on what God said.
God id Truth, and if He said this is the First Resurrection then I will believe Him.

Again staff member you are so focused on your Elijah theory that you deny the words of Christ, Paul and God.

The sad Truth is that this rapture theory presented by man has caused so much division in the Body of Christ and many have never even studied what the rapture is and when it happens.
many think that the rapture is the resurrection but Paul clearly states in scripture that it happens after the Resurrection.

I challenge every believer today to study 1 Thess 4 and 1 Cor 15 and study every thing that happens before the Resurrection takes place and see that the rapture is last.
If one is not Resurrected and given the immortal body then that same person will not be raptured.

Pauls desire was to be in that Resurrection.

It is time for all to truly study the Book of Revelations and to see that it was a whole book of Prophecy given to us His servants, not jus a few chapters but the whole book.

Remember that the Bride is not made ready, is not clothed, no marriage takes place until after the whore city is destroyed and does not take place until Rev 19 and 20.

 2014/11/12 6:00Profile
budgie
Member



Joined: 2011/2/25
Posts: 266


 Re: To Davidc

Thanks for your reply Davidc.
I do not deny that Jesus is the Resurrection of Life, and my faith in Him is because He himself did rise from the dead and not just that but he arose immortal, which was more than the body that Lazarus arose in.

I can only say this and that is that my view is completely scriptural and the words of Paul, Jesus, John and God Himself.

This is what Hebrews states.
Heb_6:2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
There is a Doctrine of the Resurrection.
Paul says
1Co 15:12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?
1Co 15:13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
1Co 15:14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.

If Christ did not rise immortal then we are the most miserable of men.

1Co 15:19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
1Co 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
1Co 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Jesus is Coming and when He comes the Resurrection will take place and all in Christ will be raised immortal like Him.

Scripture is to be used for Doctrine.

2Ti_3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

The Biblical truth is that the Doctrine of Resurrection is to be wrested from scripture and all scripture is from God for correct Doctrine and correction.

My heart burns for those that are being led astray by the theories of men that tickle the ears of flesh.

Many today want a quick fix and an escape from trials and persecution.

The wild olive branch that was grafted into the pure Olive tree is today boasting about itself and has forgotten that we are supported by the Roots of that Olive Tree and that we were grafted into the Commonwealth of Israel because of Gods Love.

Are we in the Olive Tree or do we stand alone from the Olive Tree.

 2014/11/12 6:19Profile
RogerB
Member



Joined: 2007/4/5
Posts: 248
Bruceton TN

 Re: Raptuire

The one thing we miss is the sixth trump. Satan is cast down and he becomes the false messiah. People will flock to see him wondering why they aren't raptured or saved. There will be so much spiritual deception then that unless you have the full armor of God you will be deceived. No rapture away from that. It's finally when Jesus has to come less there be no flesh left alive that we will be gathered. The false messiah is used to separate the believers from the false. God is raising his army to be a witness like those gone before.


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James R Barnes

 2014/11/12 15:44Profile





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