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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : What is the rapture and what happens before the rapture

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Joined: 2011/2/25
Posts: 266

 Re: To staff

Staff You said
The Powers are not literal have you ever seen fire coming out of a mans mouth?The powers are to bring the church back in line.
God's word(fire)Rain(outpouring)Blood(Ending false prophets in the church)Plagues(afflictions)
The two witnesses will destroy and kill with the word of God,they need nothing else

So if we use your interpretation then all of these other events in Revelations are not literal either

Rev 11:5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
Rev 11:6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and (fire) came down from God out of heaven, and (devoured) them.
Rev 13:15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be (killed).
Rev 8:8 And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the (sea became blood);
Rev 16:9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these (plagues): and they repented not to give him glory.

Interpret Scripture with scripture not ideas

 2014/10/28 7:17Profile

Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 1429


Hi Budgie
My intrepretation is very scriptural and I am intrepreting scripture with Scripture.Except you are intrepreting with a western mind and I am intrepreting along Jewish lines of Prophetic pattern and multiple fullfilment.
What I am saying is that the powers of the two witnesses are clearly not literal.Has any man ever had fire coming out of their mouth? other than the word of God.Thats why that was first on the list to show that very fact.
These are not literal because it is a mystery put in and can be only understood correctly by a jewish intrepretation.
Yours Staff

 2014/10/28 18:27Profile

Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 1429


Hi Budgie,
Sometimes its literal and sometimes its not thats the simple answer.
For instance the two witnesses are not literal "lampstands" but that term describes them perfectly.
I am understanding their powers in respect to what their ministry is.
Of course the plagues are real in the time of Moses as this was just History writing tell it as it was but the future is sometimes allegorical.For instance we know from Daniel that when he describes the powers that were to come werent literal a goat etc but was descriptive allegory.
Your Staff

 2014/10/28 18:41Profile

Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 1429


Hi Budgie'
By trying to time with the trumpets,seals and bowls is very difficult and all three or four trib views line them up differently with very convincing arguements that have been laid out by some godly people on all sides.
If the two witnesses and the antichrist both start at the beginning of the 2nd 3.5yrs of the tribulation and end the same day then the authority of the Antichrist has elapsed by the time the two witnesses are over come.
Also immediately the sun and moon will be darkened,the people are amazingly optimistic considering these things are happening.
If you havent seen my scripture to intrepret not a theory but an obvious theme in the bible then you have blanked them out.I have shown by scripture that Elijah came,hes coming again,his role when he comes again.The reason again I have shown by scripture that I go for a rapture before the second half is that in the Noah and Lot analogy it is in relative peace,judgement is immediate and think its scripturally impossible that the two witnesses minister in the second period for earlier reasons mentioned.

Another thing to think about is this.If the second half of the tribulation is 3.5 yrs exactly and the two witnesses minister exactly 1260 days the second part of the week then why is their still judgement just after their ressurection when the tribulation is over "and that very hour a severe earthquake etc"?
Yours Staff

 2014/10/28 19:36Profile

Joined: 2007/4/5
Posts: 248
Bruceton TN

 Re: The answer

All have an answer. Live right and wait and see....

I'm sure those believers in Mosul and in Egypt are pretty sure they are seeing great tribulation. No need to grasp over straws. Have Faith. We're called to be sheep for the slaughter.

James R Barnes

 2014/10/28 22:37Profile

Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 1429


Hi Rogerb
If the believers in Mosul and Eygpt have a basic knowledge of the end times which im sure they have the would understand the difference between tribulation and the great tribulaion.My faith is in our blessed hope
Yours Staff

 2014/10/29 16:24Profile

Joined: 2011/2/25
Posts: 266

 Re: to staff member.

I have to disagree with you at this present time, you have only used theory at this present time and have not once used scripture to support your theories.
You stated that the Tribulation takes place after the 2 witnesses arise but you have no scriptural proof, I say to you using scripture that the first 5 trumpets take place before they die as scripture so clearly states, 5 trumpets certainly do not speak of peace yet you say that it is a time of peace before they die.
You say that Jesus comes before the Tribulation but Jesus Himself states that He is Coming after the Tribulation, show me a verse.
You say that the First Resurrection is not the First Resurrection, show me a scripture
You say that the Rapture is this wonderful secret resurrection that takes place prior to the First Resurrection.
Show me scripture where the rapture takes place before the Resurrection
Do a study in 1 Thess 4 and study what must happen before the seizing that takes place.
the rapture does not take place prior to the resurrection, it is the other way around Resurrection is first.
It is clear that you have not done a scriptural study on each of the events in 1 Thess 4 that must happen before the seizing.
You say you are using a Jewish mindset yet you ignore scripture, I have aligned myself with the scripture certainly not with Western tickle the ears teaching .
The whole rapture teaching started in the west not in scripture.
You wont find anywhere in scripture a doctrine that states that the rapture takes place before the resurrection.
I believe I have been grafted into the commonwealth of Israel as Romans says and I must not boast as I am merely a branch, I will receive the blessings and promises and will believe that Jesus is Coming back for the Commonwealth of Israel that I have been grafted into.
No where does it say that He is coming back for only the Gentiles.
We are one body in Christ.

 2014/10/30 16:54Profile

Joined: 2011/2/25
Posts: 266

 Re: To staff member

Here is an example
I believe totally that the First Resurrection in Rev 20 is the First resurrection, not part of, not phases, God is true it is the First Resurrection and it takes place at the Coming Of Christ.
I do believe that when Jesus said that He was the First to arise in the Immortal body and that He is the First of Fruits and that when He comes all of the Fruit (crop) will arise then this is true.
God is the planter of one crop and Jesus was the First to arise of that crop and when Jesus come that whole one crop will arise, this is the First Resurrection in History of all in Christ being raised immortal.
It happens in Rev 20 not in Rev 4 as some try and say.
Jesus states that He is coming after the Tribulation.

 2014/10/30 17:01Profile

Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 1429


Hi Budgie
You can get out of answering the difficult questions by calling it theory if you want.I have shown you scripture that the two witnesses could not be part of the 2nd 3'5yrs and if they are not part of the 2nd part they then are part of the first.Its one or the other!
Again if the 42 months of the antichrist is the same as the 42 months of the two witnesses the antichrists authority is gone by the time they are killed and also if the 42 months of the 2nd part of the week end the same time the two witnesses are finished their ministry why is this happening

"The second woe has passed; the third woe is coming soon."

just after the rapture of the two witnesses when in fact the Great tribulation is over!

Again on the trumpet issue I think its very hard to use that as an accurate timing mechanism on its own and has been debated for ever by theologians on all sides.
As you know their is no verse to say that the rapture is
after the tribulation either.
As to the first resurection debate: The two witnesses are killed by the Antichrist, resurrected by God, and then caught up into heaven (Rev 11:3-12) which in your theory could not happen.
I never said he is coming back only for gentiles,we are one body in Christ.
Yours Staff

 2014/10/30 17:44Profile

Joined: 2011/2/25
Posts: 266

 Re: To staff member

Hello staff member thanks for your reply
I looked back at all the posts that you have done on the timing of the 2 witnesses and I cannot see any that you have provided that states that they are before the Tribulation, no scriptural evidence only theories.
Revelations clearly shows the Trumpets to be in succession.

This is what is written in Timothy

2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

That being the case if scripture clearly shows the first 5 Trumpets as happening before the 2 witnesses are killed and then raised again then that is the Truth, I will not argue with scripture.

Doctrine is to come from scriptures not from fleshly thoughts and ideas.
You can think against what God has said in the Trumpets but I will believe in the sequence of the Trumpets as God has said.
Paul stated very clearly that the rapture is the last in the sequence of events in 1 Thess 4:15 -18, I will believe what Paul has stated and that is that the rapture or seizing happens after the Resurrection of the dead.
God said that the First resurrection is at the Coming of Christ in Rev 20, I will not argue with God and say that it is not.
God is true to His word.
1 Cor 15 states clearly that Jesus was the first and only man to be raised in the Immortal body and that the whole crop in Christ will be raised at His Coming.
is Paul a liar, I say no Paul was saying the Truth, Jesus is the First of the Crop and we will be raised Immortal at His Coming.
1 Thess 4 states 1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
The above verses align with 1 Cor 15 and also Rev 20.
All those that have died are resting in Jesus and when He comes He will bring them with Him and raise their bodies immortal.

There have been thousands of dead people raised from the dead before Jesus died and after the day of Pentecost, yet scripture does not say that any of them were raised in their immortal bodies, if they did then Paul and God would have not been telling the Truth.

Did Lazarus arise in an Immortal body when Jesus raised his rotting dead stinking body from the dead? no he did not.

1Co 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
1Co 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
This whole Resurrection focus is on the Immortal body, not just being raised from the dead to die again.

There is an Order, Jesus and only Jesus first and then all in Christ at His Coming.

Let scripture be your Doctrine not the imaginations of men that nullify the word of God.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they (the armies that came from Heaven)sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

It includes the Armies of heaven and those that were in the Tribulation as being in that First Resurrection.

Remember the resurrection happens in the twinkling of an eye not over many years or phases as some would dare say.

Remember Jesus brings with Him those that rest in Him and their bodies are raised Immortal on that day.

God said it is the First Resurrection, it is an important Resurrection like no other, it is a Resurrection of Immortality never to die again, a body like Jesus.

He is Coming back for one body made up of Jew and Gentile, one pure Olive Tree.

 2014/10/31 3:11Profile

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