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TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5533
NC, USA

 Re:

Budgie-

You didn't address the verses I quoted in Luke which is a parallel passage to the Matthew verses. The disciples ask Jesus where those who are taken are taken to- Jesus says they will be dead, with vultures circling overhead. Likely in Gehenna (Valley of Hinnom) a place of perpetual burning where rotting corpses were tossed outside of Jerusalem during the Roman siege.


_________________
Todd

 2014/10/21 6:00Profile
staff
Member



Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 1521


 Re:

Hi Budgie
I use the name Staff after the walking stick "staff".!
I see the great tribulation the last 3.5 yrs as the "day of the Lord" which is a Judgemnt from God.The trouble in the tribulation is punishment from God not man.
So Elijah comes before the day of the Lord always.
Behold I am sending Elijah before the great and terrible day of the Lord.I guess the distinction is whether you believe the Great Tribulation is Judgemnt from God.If it is Judgemnt then the Noah and Lot passages would mean we are taken before that Judgemnt.
I saw one person say that 75% of all life will die during the 3.5yrs.How could they be living normally immediately after that period.It would take a generation.
I never studied the trumpets as much as other parts and I took the 7th trumpet to be the end of the first 3.5yrs period but I will look again .
As to giving a verse no matter what view you hold you wont get a clear one of verse for any view.
The nearest I see is "Behold I will send my Prophet Elijah before the great and terrible day of the Lord"
Again I say without understanding Elijah and his role in the church and what he does you cant understand the Tribulation.Anything to do with 3.5 is to do with Elijah
Yours Staff

 2014/10/21 7:10Profile
budgie
Member



Joined: 2011/2/25
Posts: 266


 Re: Hello staff member

One thing that I have noticed is that you say "I see" as in (I see the great tribulation the last 3.5 yrs as the "day of the Lord")but you don't say what the Bible says.
Joel clearly describes the Day of the Lord as the event that takes place literally when the signs of the sun, moon and stars are seen and the Battle in the valley of Jehoshafat takes place, this is a very specific period and a time that happens after the Tribulation as Jesus stated.
You are saying that the Day of the Lord is 3 1/2 years long, if that is the case then the signs in the heavens are for 3 1/2 years and actually come at the beginning of the Tribulation, this is not what Jesus says not just that but you are also stating that the battle is also 3 1/2 years long because this only happens when the signs are seen, not just that but you are also stating that the following events are also 3 1/2 years long.
Joe 2:1 Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand;
Joe 2:2 A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong; there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations.
Joe 2:3 A fire devoureth before them; and behind them a flame burneth: the land is as the garden of Eden before them, and behind them a desolate wilderness; yea, and nothing shall escape them.
Joe 2:4 The appearance of them is as the appearance of horses; and as horsemen, so shall they run.
Joe 2:5 Like the noise of chariots on the tops of mountains shall they leap, like the noise of a flame of fire that devoureth the stubble, as a strong people set in battle array.
Joe 2:6 Before their face the people shall be much pained: all faces shall gather blackness.
Joe 2:7 They shall run like mighty men; they shall climb the wall like men of war; and they shall march every one on his ways, and they shall not break their ranks:
Joe 2:8 Neither shall one thrust another; they shall walk every one in his path: and when they fall upon the sword, they shall not be wounded.
Joe 2:9 They shall run to and fro in the city; they shall run upon the wall, they shall climb up upon the houses; they shall enter in at the windows like a thief.
Joe 2:10 The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining:
Joe 2:11 And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the LORD is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?

Is the above verses really a 3 1/2 year period, I doubt very much, all scriptures speak of this Day of the Lord as a Particular Day that starts with the signs in the Heavens and also when the Battle at Jerusalem takes place.
Jesus Himself told us in scripture that when we see these signs in the Heavens to look up for our Redemption draweth near.

 2014/10/25 18:47Profile
budgie
Member



Joined: 2011/2/25
Posts: 266


 Re: Hello again Staff member

Staff Member You ask me a lot of questions and I try to answer them all with the Word of God not my own thoughts or ideas, I answered your question regarding the day of the lord with the Book of Joel but there are also many other prophecies that speak of that same period and the signs in the skies.
I will now try and answer your next question.
I Budgie see the Tribulation as exactly what Jesus says and that is as follows, it is the Greek word G2347 thlipsis

From G2346; pressure (literally or figuratively): - afflicted, (-tion), anguish, burdened, persecution, tribulation, trouble.

This word is used so many times in scripture and applies to us as believers as well as to the whole world, yes it will be a time of being all of the above, but Jesus does not say anywhere that it is a Judgement, it is a thlipsis.

I do believe that Elijah will come before the Day of the Lord that happens after the Thlipsis and when the signs are in the heavens as Joel states clearly, the Antichrist only has power for 3 1/2 years until the last day of the Tribulation and then after the Tribulation he has to use demons and people to assemble the army at Jerusalem.

Daniel speaks very clearly of a period after the Tribulation
Dan 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
Dan 12:12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.
Dan 12:13 But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.

We still do not know what exact day or hour that Jesus is Coming after the Tribulation ends but we do know that there are days that exist.

You said that you saw one person say that 75% of all life die during the 3 1/2 years, but what does the Bible say.

The book of Daniel and all the visions and prophecies is very middle east focused, the book of Revelation is very focused around the middle east, as are all prophetic books,the battle is at the land of God.
Maybe you should study the Book of Revelation and especially all of the Trumpets etc and then have a theory that is based on scripture not on mans thoughts and ideas and I say this in a very loving and concerned brother in Christ, and I apply these same words to myself, I have studied the scriptures and allowed the scriptures to be the Doctrine or Theory not mans words.
How can you say that the first 3 1/2 year period is in the 6th to 7th Trumpet area if you have never studied it, this would also place the Antichrist as being in that same 3 1/2 year period all between the last two trumpets.

I ask you again where in scripture does Jesus Himself say that He is Coming before the Tribulation, Jesus own words that came from His Lips are that He is Coming after the Tribulation and at the times of the signs in heavens.

 2014/10/25 19:10Profile
staff
Member



Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 1521


 Re:

Hi Budgie
Here is what wiki says about it the bastion of correct intrepretation!
----------------------------------------------------
The Day of the Lord is a biblical term and theme used in both the Hebrew Bible (Old Testament) and the New Testament. A related expression is the Great Day as in "The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come." which appears in both Old and New Testaments.[1] In the Hebrew bible, the meaning of the phrases refers to temporal events such as the invasion of a foreign army, the capture of a city and the suffering that befalls the inhabitants. In the New Testament, the "day of the Lord" may also refer to the writer's own times, or it may refer to predicted events in a later age of earth's history including the final judgment[2] and World to Come. The expression may also have an extended meaning in referring to both the first and second comings of Jesus Christ. This appears much in the first chapter of Isaiah.
=========================================================

The day of the lord can mean when God comes,when God Judges,
and before the 1st and 2nd coming.It has a few meanings not as Narrow as you are saying.
Obviously when Jesus came 2000 yrs ago that was "the day of the lord".That day lasted from when he was born until he died and ascended.More specifically it lasted from the time John (elijah) baptised him until he was crucified.(3.5)
We see another Day of the Lord in the 3.5 yr tribulation when God makes a judgement on the world.If Elijah comes which you said he would then it will just before when Jesus comes.Interestingly the Jews are very specific about Elijah.
What they believe is he can only come before thursday of the week of passover as Friday is Passover.An early Jewish Rabbi in debate with Justin Martyr laughed that the Christ had come because their was no visible Elijah.
So when does Elijah come in your time line?
So the Tribulation is the Day of the lord but is not the only time described as the day of the lord.
Yours Staff

 2014/10/25 19:32Profile
budgie
Member



Joined: 2011/2/25
Posts: 266


 Re: hello TMK

What you said is very true that Matthew and Luke are Parallel, they are speaking of exactly the same event and are in fact saying the exact same thing.
I looked in all translations and could not find in any that the people are in fact dead with vultures circling overhead.
But what is true is that the same word taken is used in Luke and in Matthew and that is the Greek word G3880
to receive near, that is, associate with oneself (in any familiar or intimate act or relation); by analogy to assume an office; figuratively to learn: - receive, take (unto, with). used in the following verse Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and (receive you unto myself); that where I am, there ye may be also.
So if you are saying that the taken word means to be destroyed and to be dead then you have missed the intimate words that Jesus is saying.
Also the body word in the Greek is referring to the body and is used for living and dead as follows
Col 3:15 And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to the which also ye are called in one body; and be ye thankful.
So are we a dead carcass rotting or are we the body of Christ
Heb 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
Jesus offered His body but he also arose in that same body but it was now immortal.
The vultures or eagles word in the Greek makes reference to the ability of flight
G105 ah-et-os'
From the same as G109; an eagle (from its wind like flight): - eagle.
We will literally fly when we are raptured to Jesus after our bodies are Resurrected Immortal
and lastly the last word used is gathered together which in the greek means G4863 sunagō
From G4862 and G71; to lead together, that is, collect or convene; specifically to entertain (hospitably): - + accompany, assemble (selves, together), bestow, come together, gather (selves together, up, together), lead into, resort, take in.

So what I read is that Jesus Himself will take us in an intimate way to Himself to His body and we will be flying there as eagles for the purpose of being bestowed, being entertained in an intimate way as in a Resort.

I will believe what the Greek so clearly states and not the destructive words of men, there is no mention of dead bodies that are rotting and no mention of bodies being taken for burning.
Only the so intimate words of Jesus speaking to us of His Great Desire for Intimacy and of Deliverance before Judgement as in the days of Noah.

 2014/10/25 19:36Profile
budgie
Member



Joined: 2011/2/25
Posts: 266


 Re: Thanks for your reply Staff Member

It saddens me when you say what wikki says rather than what the word of God says, we must read and study what scriptures say to understand what God says rather than outside sources to tell us what God is saying, to many read all of the theories of men rather that the Word of God itself.
You are again asking me a question for me to answer and I will answer them in the words of Jesus Himself, Elijah has come and will also come before Christ comes again and appears the second time.
The Timeline of Jesus is this, He said to read the Book of Daniel so as to see when the Tribulation begins at the Abomination, Jesus said that the Tribulation begins when the Abomination of Desolation begins, this is of course in the middle of the 7 year Treaty, there remains only 1260 days or 42 months or 3 1/2 years in this Treaty period, many have fled into the wilderness of Judea and are protected for 3 1/2 years, the Holy city is being trampled for only 3 1/2 years, the Beast only has power for 3 1/2 years, the two witnesses only witness for 3 1/2 years
This 3 1/2 year period is a very strongly prophesied period and will be just that, 3 1/2 years, Jesus then states clearly that this period of Tribulation stops and there is more time after this, Jesus says that there will be signs in the heavens which are the exact same signs that are spoken of in Isaiah and Joel, and in Revelations, this period of time when the signs are seen is when the AntiChrist gathers the armies to Jerusalem the same as Joel, Isaiah and Revelations.
Where in scripture does it say that the 3 1/2 year Tribulation is the day of the Lord, I put it to you that you will not find it any where, but you will see that the day of the Lord takes place during those signs that Jesus spoke after the Tribulation
I will believe the Timeline of Jesus.

 2014/10/25 19:52Profile
staff
Member



Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 1521


 Re:

Hi Budgie
What does the bible say about the "the great tribulation"a time not ever seen before or since so that 75% may be very near the mark but world war 1 and 11 are a picnic compares to this time either way.
The trumpets seals and bowls are opened,blew and poured out by God that is a Judgement in any language.
When does the 3.5yr ministry of Elijah begin?Because immediately after that Jesus comes. we know that because thats whats prophesised.Also why would God pour out Judgement on an a people that Elijah has restored to their father!
Their is no gap for the earth to come back to normal.After the trib it would be devastation and in ruins.
If the sun is darkened and the moon doesnt give off its light how are the people of Noah and Lot passages marrying eating drinking buying and selling?How are the women milling and the men working in the field?Do they need light to grow to work to party!
Jesus said" Immediately after the distress of those days"
the sun would be darkend etc.Where is the chance for the earth to return to normal without the sun nothing grows and if its immediately after the trib.
In the Noah and Lot passages it is highlighted twice "until"indicating how sudden Judgement would come.Straightaway! but in the Joel passage it isnt straigthaway or sudden their are signs in the sky etc.It is obviously two different times.
In the examples Jesus gave after the "until" time has come their is no hope of stopping the judgement but in the Joel scripture their is hope for salvation.
Also did the previous tribulation not have any effect on them?In your timeline they have learned nothing from the tribulation?
Yours Staff

 2014/10/25 20:15Profile
budgie
Member



Joined: 2011/2/25
Posts: 266


 Re: to Staff Member

I do so much enjoy our discussions and find them serving a great purpose as it challenges us in what we believe and to also see if what we believe is actually true and based on scripture not just the ear tickling words of men.
I have always answered your questions with a biblical answer not just my own ideas.
I was gladdened when you were honest and said that you had not studied the trumpets and in that case probably a larger amount of what is in the Book of revelation, you in a sense stated that you had a theory but had never studied scripture in Revelation to see if that theory aligned with scripture, I do hope now that you will study the scriptures so that you will have a theory that the word of God says rather than what many teach.
Please do me this one favour and answer my questions with a yes or no and give scriptural support

Did Jesus say that He was coming after the Tribulation
Did Jesus say that He was Coming before the Tribulation
Is the rapture the resurrection or is it after the resurrection, what verse has the Harpazo word.
Does the rapture take place in the twinkling of an eye or does the Resurrection and bodies being changed happen in the twinkling of an eye
Did Paul say that the Harpazo (rapture) takes place last after the Resurrection of the dead
Did Paul say that there is an order to the Resurrection, Jesus first and afterward at His Coming all of those in Christ are raised.
Is Jesus the First Fruit or is He not the First Fruit
How many times does Jesus come as a thief to those on the earth
When God says in Rev 20 that this is the first Resurrection is this the First resurrection of Immortal or not
Did Jesus say that when we see the signs in the heavens we are to look up as our redemption draws near and is at the door
Is there the Resurrection of the Just and the resurrection of the unjust
Does the bride finally make herself ready at the time that Jesus comes to earth and does she finally get clothed at this time and the wedding finally take place at this time when the First Resurrection takes place
Is Jesus Coming or is He appearing when He comes

Please answer the above as I have at all times answered your questions with scripture and have clearly aligned myself with the words of Jesus.

 2014/10/25 20:30Profile
staff
Member



Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 1521


 Re:

Hi Budgie
This is the point
Where after the trib and the Joel Prophesy(which Jesus said is immediate) does the world have a chance to get back to partying ;working at a mill etc?
-----------------------------------------------------------
This 3 1/2 year period is a very strongly prophesied period and will be just that, 3 1/2 years, Jesus then states clearly that this period of Tribulation stops and there is more time after this, Jesus says that there will be signs in the heavens which are th
----------------------------------------------------------
Wiki is correct in it explaination of "day of the Lord" as having a general meaning and a specific meaning and this view is commonly accepted.It comes from references from ff bruce and other reference books written by Christians
The day of the lord has many fulfillments not just the Joel passage.
We know that the first time Jesus came that that was "the day of the lord" and we know that Elijah comes before the "day of the lord" in the future.We know that it could have meaning like the sabbath day or it could also mean the day God Judges or gives blessing or both.In that since the tribulation can be viewed as the day of the lord or the rapture could be the day of he lord.
Elijah comes before Gods Judgement is what I am saying "the terrible day".
Yours Staff

 2014/10/25 20:52Profile





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