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 Re: a quote from George fox suspect

Thus I travelled on in the Lord's service, as He led me. When I came to Nottingham, the mighty power of God was there among Friends. From thence I went to Clawson, in Leicestershire, in the Vale of Beavor; and the mighty power of God appeared there also, in several towns and villages where Friends were gathered.

While I was there the Lord opened to me three things relating to those three great professions in the world, -- law, physic, and divinity (so called). He showed me that the physicians were out of the wisdom of God, by which the creatures were made; and knew not the virtues of the creatures, because they were out of the Word of wisdom, by which they were made. He showed me that the priests were out of the true faith, of which Christ is the author, -- the faith which purifies, gives victory and brings people to have access to God, by which they please God; the mystery of which faith is held in a pure conscience. He showed me also that the lawyers were out of the equity, out of the true justice, and out of the law of God, which went over the first transgression, and over all sin, and answered the Spirit of God that was grieved and transgressed in man; and that these three, -- the physicians, the priests, and the lawyers, -- ruled the world out of the wisdom, out of the faith, and out of the equity and law of God; one pretending the cure of the body, another the cure of the soul, and the third the protection of the property of the people. But I saw they were all out of the wisdom, out of the faith, out of the equity and perfect law of God.

And as the Lord opened these things unto me I felt that His power went forth over all, by which all might be reformed if they would receive and bow unto it. The priests might be reformed and brought into the true faith, which is the gift of God. The lawyers might be reformed and brought into the law of God, which answers that [indwelling Spirit] of God which is [in every one, is] transgressed in every one, and [which yet, if heeded] brings one to love his neighbour as himself. This lets man see that if he wrongs his neighbour, he wrongs himself; and teaches him to do unto others as he would they should do unto him. The physicians might be reformed and brought into the wisdom of God, by which all things were made and created; that they might receive a right knowledge of the creatures, and understand their virtues, which the Word of wisdom, by which they were made and are upheld, hath given them.

Abundance was opened concerning these things; how all lay out of the wisdom of God, and out of the righteousness and holiness that man at the first was made in. But as all believe in the Light, and walk in the Light, -- that Light with which Christ hath enlightened every man that cometh into the world, -- and become children of the Light, and of the day of Christ, all things, visible and invisible, are seen, by the divine Light of Christ, the spiritual heavenly man, by whom all things were created.

Moreover, when I was brought up into His image in righteousness and holiness, and into the paradise of God He let me see how Adam was made a living soul; and also the stature of Christ, the mystery that had been hid from ages and generations: which things are hard to be uttered, and cannot be borne by many. For of all the sects in Christendom (so called) that I discoursed with, I found none who could bear to be told that any should come to Adam's perfection, -- into that image of God, that righteousness and holiness, that Adam was in before he fell; to be clean and pure, without sin, as he was. Therefore how shall they be able to bear being told that any shall grow up to the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ, when they cannot bear to hear that any shall come, whilst upon earth, into the same power and Spirit that the prophets and apostles were in? -- though it be a certain truth that none can understand their writings aright without the same Spirit by which they were written.

Now the Lord God opened to me by His invisible power that every man was enlightened by the divine Light of Christ, and I saw it shine through all; and that they that believed in it came out of condemnation to the Light of life, and became the children of it; but they that hated it, and did not believe in it were condemned by it, though they made a profession of Christ. This I saw in the pure openings of the Light without the help of any man; neither did I then know where to find it in the Scriptures; though afterwards, searching the Scriptures, I found it. For I saw, in that Light and Spirit which was before the Scriptures were given forth, and which led the holy men of God to give them forth, that all, if they would know God or Christ, or the Scriptures aright, must come to that Spirit by which they that gave them forth were led and taught.

On a certain time, as I was walking in the fields, the Lord said unto me, "Thy name is written in the Lamb's book of life, which was before the foundation of the world": and as the Lord spoke it, I believed, and saw in it the new birth. Some time after the Lord commanded me to go abroad into the world, which was like a briery, thorny wilderness. When I came in the Lord's mighty power with the Word of life into the world, the world swelled and made a noise like the great raging waves of the sea. Priests and professors, magistrates and people, were all like a sea when I came to proclaim the day of the Lord amongst them, and to preach repentance to them.

I was sent to turn people from darkness to the Light, that they might receive Christ Jesus; for to as many as should receive Him in His Light, I saw He would give power to become the sons of God; which power I had obtained by receiving Christ. I was to direct people to the Spirit that gave forth the Scriptures, by which they might be led into all truth, and up to Christ and God, as those had been who gave them forth. George Fox 1648/9

"Up to Christ and God" by the "Spirit that gave forth the Scriptures"

 2014/8/24 8:01









 Re:

Here is a useful tip in reading Fox whic h I have found to be correct:

"If you are new to Fox, I have a suggestion: study what he says. If there is something in the Bible, which you think conflicts with what Fox has written, try this approach in resolving the apparent difference: assume Fox is right, and now reexamine the scripture, questioning and searching your mind on how it could be interpreted to support what Fox says. If you do that, you will invariably see that every scripture is in harmony with Fox's entire message, with no exceptions. But, if you fail to reconsider your past understandings, which might be wrong, you must discard many scriptures that are incompatible with the subset of scriptures that you dearly hold to be true. All scriptures are compatible; if you have to disregard one to maintain your understanding, then you don’t understand the ones you think you do. One day, when you get that one more piece of the scripture puzzle, you will see how all the scriptures are totally compatible; and then you have the correct formula for what God desires and what he detests. Knowledge is not salvation, but exposes false salvations, and points the way to the one true salvation, which is to be delivered from sin and is to be experienced.http://www.hallvworthington.com/wjournal/gfjournal1.html"

 2014/8/24 8:24









 Re:

Fox on understanding the scriptures rightly:

"Moreover, the Lord God let me see, when I was brought up into his image in righteousness and holiness, and into the state of the paradise of God how Adam was made a living soul; and also to the stature of Christ, the mystery that had been hid from ages and generations; which things are hard to be uttered, and cannot be borne by many. For of all the sects in Christendom (so called) that I discoursed with, I found none that could bear to be told that anyone could spiritually grow to Adam's perfection, (that is into that image of God, and righteousness and holiness that Adam was in before he fell), to be clean, pure, and without sin as he was. Therefore, how would they be able to bear being told that any should spiritually grow up to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; when it threatens them to hear that any shall come, while upon earth, into the same power and spirit that the prophets and apostles were in? Though it is an absolute truth, that none can understand the Apostle’s writings correctly without the same spirit by which they were written."

 2014/8/24 8:36









 Re:

Some times Brenda I am genuinely speechless at the things you write.

Can you really mean to say that in order to arrive at truth a person must reject their understanding of Scripture, presume complete accuracy by George Fox and then re-examine Scripture seeking to find George Fox's meanings?

Brenda you are the one who instructed Gary to give context to the words of George Fox's comments regarding his rebuke of a Church of England Priest. Then when I come along and give them proper context you totally disregard that context, refuse to acknowledge its meaning and end up advising all of us to adopt a position of presuming George Fox to be the height of revelation and our own understanding of Scripture to be false or wrong. In that we are to "set aside" our knowledge of Scripture and look for evidence of what Fox has said.

The only reason I posted into this thread was to support Gary in his claim that the priest was indeed right when he said that all doctrine must be tested from the Scripture. That George Fox intended sinless perfection in this life, as you understand that saying, may well be a whole lot different to what Fox intended to mean by his words. I also did not intend to draw you into a debate on sinless perfection and so I could say that Gary's wife is called Brenda.

Now in finality you infer that true salvation means "to be delivered from sin and is to be experienced". By which means are all other conditions of salvation by definition, false. Brenda why would you believe after everything that has passed between us on here, for which I have been attacked repeatedly by other members, would now amount to an intention to support your teaching of sinless perfection. By attribution I have no choice but to distance myself from your action. All of my posts are to give context Brenda and not to promote your interpretation of it out of hand. Fox I can believe meant and understood something entirely different in the sense that he was translating a heavily vision of what could happen if men were to come under the power and true leading of the Holy Spirit. He was not advocating sinless perfection as though a man could never sin again or would in fact live an entirely sinless life. In the same way that Adam was sinless and then by the power of his own will, he sinned.

That Fox by his words has made possible sinless perfection as a false doctrine is a reality in some quarters. I have read others who have expressed a disappointment that Fox did not explain these words sufficiently well enough. Just because a false doctrine can be found in another's words does not mean that they intended such a doctrine. He was just twenty-four years old at the time and clearly he was describing a heavenly revelation or vision by which he was able to comprehend eternal truths. Translating all such truths into day to day reality is always fraught with dangers. What is even more dangerous is to attempt to do it some 350 + years later.

 2014/8/24 8:53









 Re:

Quote:
Can you really mean to say that in order to arrive at truth a person must reject their understanding of Scripture, presume complete accuracy by George Fox and then re-examine Scripture seeking to find George Fox's meanings?



The point that the writer made, was that we should follow his suggestion *in order to understand the way Fox is interpreting them*. We can then decide whether we agree or not but first we must see how he is understanding the scriptural view we are opposing. He is interpreting the scriptures quite often in a way that is not grasped by many who are not in the same spirit as he so he is frequently misunderstood.

Quote:
I have read others who have expressed a disappointment that Fox did not explain these words sufficiently well enough. Just because a false doctrine can be found in another's words does not mean that they intended such a doctrine. He was just twenty-four years old at the time and clearly he was describing a heavenly revelation or vision by which he was able to comprehend eternal truths. Translating all such truths into day to day reality is always fraught with dangers. What is even more dangerous is to attempt to do it some 350 + years later.



Fox made it more than clear here:

"At last they asked me, whether I was sanctified? I answered, yes; for I was in the paradise of God. Then they asked me, if I had no sin? I answered, Christ, my savior, has taken away my sin; and in him there is no sin. They asked how we knew that Christ did abide in us? I said, by his spirit that he has given us. They temptingly asked, if any of us were Christ? I answered, no, we were nothing, and Christ was all. They said, if a man steal, is it no sin? I answered that all unrighteousness is sin. When they had wearied themselves in examining me, they committed me and one other man to the house of correction in Derby for six months, as blasphemers."

Please note I am not defending the doctrine I am merely showing what Fox taught.

 2014/8/24 9:06









 Re:

Quote:
Please note I am not defending the doctrine I am merely showing what Fox taught.



I rather thought that you had precisely done that very thing Brenda time and again both here and elsewhere. I grant that Fox's words are difficult to resist in their implication of what he himself may have intended to mean.

The same thing could be said of the examination he records at Derby assizes.

I can't be bothered to go into it. Although I have no doubt that it would be very easy to contract a semantic argument which exonerates Fox from a deliberate presentation of a claim to sinless perfection by giving some insight into 17th Century usage of the English language. The questions may have been in a mocking tone. They do not have to have been sincere or truly an enquiry into truth. They could have been intended to impute a heresy and not necessarily to uncover one. The words of themselves could be made to mean anything.

I take my position from the fact that I too have been in paradise by the grace of God and thus see very easily that no such thing could have been possible except that sin had been thoroughly removed from my account. It is easy to mock all such claims and I can imagine how Fox would have been mocked by dead men who professed Christ as their own but had no true knowledge of Him, let alone been in the place of His habitation. Fox's account hinges on his claim to have been in Paradise. Without that it would be heretical. With it, it becomes a true revelation of our condition in Christ Jesus and even in this life a measure from which to truly seek to please the Lord in our present conduct. What it may not have been intended to mean was a claim to sinless perfection in this life.

 2014/8/24 9:25









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Well Fox was known as one of the great mystics and a holy man by his peers at the time, many making the same claims as he and mystical theology consisting of exactly that - union with Christ and taking on His nature. He follows in a long line of them since the early fathers and they all interpreted the scriptures in the same way, often having come to the understanding without any influence as myself came to it.

Often people discount the teaching without taking the time to understand the claims or the way scriptures are seen supporting that view. Of course, many do not accept it and they are entitled not to.

 2014/8/24 9:48
brothagary
Member



Joined: 2011/10/23
Posts: 1863


 Re:

the reason i posted this was ,wile i was browsing i came across an article by a quaker who was comparing some of what fox taught to the course of miracles ,which is a heretical so called Christian teaching
he was saying that it is more or less what fox was teaching

what i posted was just a snippet of that article ,he was saying the course of miracles is the same in that it places inner revaluation above scripture

i thought that in that example it sure seemed that way

quakers today definitely do downgrade the scripture in some groups


fox wrote this which to me and many bornaging Christians would seem to be a blanket statement of judgment ,it seems that it would be imposable to know this as facts

if one of us here said this about all those movements or even the catholic church ,,we would be rebuked for over reacting iv seen that happen in this form many time

fox said ;;;;;;;;; The Great Mystery of the Great Whore Unfolded.;;;;;;;;;;;;;;Also, An invasion upon the great city Babylon, with the spoiling of her golden cup, and delicate merchandise, whereby she hath deceived the world and nations; and herein is declared the spoiling of her prey, in this answer to the multitude of doctrines held forth by the many false sects, which have lost the key of knowledge, and been on foot since the apostles' days, called Anabaptists, Independents, Presbyters, Ranters, and many others; who out of their own mouths have manifested themselves not to be of a true descent from the true Christian churches: but it is discovered that they have all been made drunk with the wine of fornication received from the whore which hath sitten upon the beast, after whom the world has wondered

the Anabaptists are praised here this fourm but not so with George it seems he calls them a false sect

is it true the Anabaptist are a false sect ,,what does the fourm think

 2014/8/25 3:07Profile









 Re:

Gary

Many Quakers downgrade the scriptures and many do not even believe in God and call themselves atheist Quakers. The movement is dead and there is no-one preaching the message Fox brought that I know of, and certainly not in the UK although there was an academic book printed called: Holiness: The Soul of Quakerism: An Historical Analysis of the Theology of Holiness in the Quaker Tradition (Studies in Christian History and Thought) Paperback – December 1, 2007 by Carole Dale Spencer which showed that the original message was not that 'every man is lighted with the light of Christ' which is what many Quakers think, but it was concerning holiness and similar to the revivals in the Holiness Movement days.

When Fox formed the Quakers, there had been no groups who's message was holiness until then, though I am sure that he knew that there had been small groups (or even individuals) like the Carmelites within the Spanish Catholic church. He said that all denominations were apostate, even the Anabaptists from their onset who were not formed over that doctrine. It was the organisations that Fox spoke out against, not individuals within who may be true disciples.

Fox held the scriptures in their rightly place, in that there is no interpretation of them unless a person is in the same Spirit as the writers. In those times, many believed that any man could read the scriptures and understand them. Fox said that having the Spirit inside is the first thing that is needed. Then the scriptures will be in accordance with the 'light' and there will be no discordance.

 2014/8/25 8:14
crusader
Member



Joined: 2006/2/22
Posts: 410
Australia:

 Re:

Hi All

just wanted to say that i have found this discussion interesting, i had never heard of Fox before and i will be now looking at more about him. Cheers


_________________
karl rashleigh

 2014/8/25 8:59Profile





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