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brothagary
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Joined: 2011/10/23
Posts: 1863


 a quote from George fox suspect

In the following quotation, George Fox reacts to a pastor quoting scripture and shows that it is the connection with Holy Spirit that is sacred — not the scriptures. This `interruption' landed Fox in prison!

He [the pastor] took for his text these words of Peter, "We have also a more sure Word of prophecy, where unto ye do well that ye take heed…And he told the people that this was the Scriptures, by which they were to try all doctrines, religions, and opinions. Now the Lord's power was so mighty upon me...that I...was made to cry out and say, "Oh, no; it is not the Scriptures!" and I told them what it was, namely, the Holy Spirit...whereby opinions, religions, and judgments were to be tried; for it led into all truth, and so gave the knowledge of all truth. The Jews had the Scriptures, and yet resisted the Holy Ghost, and rejected Christ, the bright morning star. They persecuted Christ and His apostles and took upon them to try their doctrines by the Scriptures; but they erred in judgment, and did not try them aright, because they tried without the Holy Ghost. (Ch. III _ "The Challenge and the First Taste of Prison, 1648-1649," paragraphs 3 & 4)



now would someone filled with the holy spirit say this about scripture ,its given that we need the holy spirit but this prophecy from fox excludes the scripture completely and teaches basically the inner light in all men is all we need

dont i need the scripture to compare and try spiritual teachings,,is ist the word of god that keeps us on the path
,

i was nearly deceived by course of miracles in my early Christian life due to my lack of biblical understanding also Gnosticism and Eastern religion had my attention in a negative way ,till i developed a deeper understanding of the holy scripture

whats your thoughts

 2014/8/24 1:44Profile









 Re: a quote from George fox suspect

No-one knew the scriptures more than George Fox, he quoted them regularly and taught that whatever the Holy Spirit shows a man, must be confirmed by scripture.

He spoke against men who had the scriptures but did not have the Holy Spirit, which comes first.

It just shows how a mans words can be taken out of context when people read excerpts without reading more widely from source.

 2014/8/24 2:26









 Re: a quote from George fox suspect

Quote:
In the following quotation, George Fox reacts to a pastor quoting scripture and shows that it is the connection with Holy Spirit that is sacred — not the scriptures. This `interruption' landed Fox in prison!



At the time of this event, which was in Nottingham, Fox was twenty-four years of age. The same biography from which you took your quote also tells us that Fox was eventually dealt with leniently although he did spend some weeks in prison awaiting to go before a judge. The interim was spent mostly at the house of the Principle Sheriff who's wife saw in Fox a true light. Fox missed several hearings because he was busy ministering at the time and the Sherif was late in getting him to the court. The judge on one occasion, though angry at having to stand down, indicated that he would have simply rebuked "the youth" had he appeared that day.

In any event the context of what Fox said in the Church was consistent with his understanding of the whole meaning and purpose of evangelism. Hence why Fox speaks of the congregation being "fallow ground" and the priest being as a "lump of earth". You don't sow seed on ground that is become a lump of earth. Remember the prophecy Gary go read it again you will see the answer therein.

I don't believe this account of Fox has anything to do with taking the Scriptures less than seriously. I believe it is at once a reflection of Fox's belief that all men who's hearts are natural are open to God, and all men who's hearts are hardened by unnatural and perverse affections are dead to God. His challenge to the priest was simply a sowing of seeds to the hearts of men and women who he saw as natural, to be open to true God and in that endeavour he was asking them to be alive to the leading of the Holy Spirit.

The following entry of Fox spells out the underlying knowledge which informed his activities and can be seen in this instance you have made reference to.

"Now the Lord God opened to me by His invisible power that every man was enlightened by the divine Light of Christ, and I saw it shine through all; and that they that believed in it came out of condemnation to the Light of life, and became the children of it; but they that hated it, and did not believe in it were condemned by it, though they made a profession of Christ. This I saw in the pure openings of the Light without the help of any man; neither did I then know where to find it in the Scriptures; though afterwards, searching the Scriptures, I found it. For I saw, in that Light and Spirit which was before the Scriptures were given forth, and which led the holy men of God to give them forth, that all, if they would know God or Christ, or the Scriptures aright, must come to that Spirit by which they that gave them forth were led and taught."

The real question in this is less to do with the merit of Scriptures, and more to do with the hearts and minds of men and women and a knowledge of when to sow and when to pass by.

The same revelation which gave rise to this instance in Nottingham and all of Fox's endeavours also contained these words:

"Abundance was opened concerning these things; how all lay out of the wisdom of God, and out of the righteousness and holiness that man at the first was made in. But as all believe in the Light, and walk in the Light, -- that Light with which Christ hath enlightened every man that cometh into the world, -- and become children of the Light, and of the day of Christ, all things, visible and invisible, are seen, by the divine Light of Christ, the spiritual heavenly man, by whom all things were created.

Moreover, when I was brought up into His image in righteousness and holiness, and into the paradise of God He let me see how Adam was made a living soul; and also the stature of Christ, the mystery that had been hid from ages and generations: which things are hard to be uttered, and cannot be borne by many. For of all the sects in Christendom (so called) that I discoursed with, I found none who could bear to be told that any should come to Adam's perfection, -- into that image of God, that righteousness and holiness, that Adam was in before he fell; to be clean and pure, without sin, as he was. Therefore how shall they be able to bear being told that any shall grow up to the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ, when they cannot bear to hear that any shall come, whilst upon earth, into the same power and Spirit that the prophets and apostles were in? -- though it be a certain truth that none can understand their writings aright without the same Spirit by which they were written."

In short Gary sinless perfection. Morning Brenda!

 2014/8/24 5:20
brothagary
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Joined: 2011/10/23
Posts: 1863


 Re: a quote from George fox suspect

2peter 1;19 So we have the prophetic word made more sure, to which you do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star arises in your hearts. 20But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation,…

Brenda the verses in question are not talking about the holy spirit as fox said in his prophecy

verse 20 shows that the it is Scripture that the peter is writing about

so fox was wrong about what he said in that respect ,,so he was deceived in this instance cleary ,when he said the lords power was on him ,when he said oh not the Scriptures

so he wasn't speaking with the holy spirit ,or else he would have not contradicted the scripture

and also as i said he totally disregard the scripture in general in that so called prophecy he gave the congregation


another translation gods word translation says this
So we regard the words of the prophets as confirmed beyond all doubt. You're doing well by paying attention to their words. Continue to pay attention as you would to a light that shines in a dark place as you wait for day to come and the morning star to rise in your hear

peter is saying in the previous verses we saw the lord transfigured on the holy mountain and we herd the voice of god him self ,it confirms the prohect word of the prophets so keep your focus on scripture and heed the things that was spoken by them

this is not literly speaking about the holy spirit in believers as fox as wrongly said

the two main things the bible is speaking about peters apostolic Gospel message about Christ and the prophetic scriptures

so im not relay taking fox out of context but he was taking the scripture out of context in this instance and degrading the holy writings that peter was trying to exhort the believers to believe in and gaze upon

there is somthing wrong with this picture

not only did he misinterpret the sure word of prophecy as the holy spirit ,,he degraded the scripture ,where as peter the apostle was confirming the veracity and importance of scripture

many of us are very negative to words the charismatics for doing this but miss or over look ,

i think honestly if someone has is claimed to be an apostle or prophetic with a mega anointing ,they would not make false prophecy and degrade scripture even once ,,but thats up for debate i suppose

 2014/8/24 5:39Profile
brothagary
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Joined: 2011/10/23
Posts: 1863


 Re:

oh hi andrew

 2014/8/24 5:47Profile
brothagary
Member



Joined: 2011/10/23
Posts: 1863


 Re:

i got no qulams if some is exorting to be open to the holy spirit but doing it in a way that contradicts scripture instead of expounding corectly is not going to go down well ,but would be a stumbling block if anything

sinless perfection ,,is also a fasle teaching ,,i dont no know if i want to go there lol,,,

hows everything going for you at home andrew

 2014/8/24 5:56Profile









 Re:

Quote:
16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.

17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

18 And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.

19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:

20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.



Peter is clear that he is speaking of the 'voice' that direct speaking of the Holy Ghost to men, not the recorded voice in God speaking to other men. Fox stressed that it is not enough to hear God through other men in scripture, but we must hear His voice within us and this comes first and it is confirmed by other men speaking in scripture.

 2014/8/24 6:01









 Re:

Good morning Andrew

At least someone else here understands that Fox taught sinless perfection along with other mystics and not the later Protestant holiness teachings which go only so far of the way there and which seems to be accepted as non heretical here unless I speak about it so I will say no more.

Gary go and start the greatest revival that England has seen then come back and say where Fox was wrong on hearing God.

 2014/8/24 6:03
brothagary
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Joined: 2011/10/23
Posts: 1863


 Re:

that wasn't the voice of the holy spirit in men as we are familiar with as in the spirit speaking in our hearts ,,that was the father speaking in a uneak way in a physical way in asimalar was the angle spoke aloud and it sounded as thunder and Jesus said that was a sign given for the peoples sake the holy spirit was not given in that time so it cant have been the holy spirit

it obvious that verse 19 peter is telling them to heed the word of prophecy verse 20 confirms that

the same sort of thing happened to moses on the mountain

verse 16 is the context
we made known to you Jesus Christ because we were witness also of his glory

this is not a spiritual experience of the holy spirit mmthey really did see the glory of Christ and with there own ears herd the voice of glory

the context is built around verse 16 the apostolic message peter preached to them

he saying we witnessed the fact and we bare witness to you these facts he described the facts then in 19 says this confirms scripture more surly ,or he saying the scripture is even more sure a witness then the message you receive from us either variable ,doesnt change the fact that he is saying head the word spoken by me or by the prophets or both ,,this has nothing to do with exhorting believes to hear the direct voice of the holy spirit
20 and 21 peters is you can head the message of the prophets directly ,and indirectly his own witness about Jesus ,because it comes from god ,21 confirms that he is speaking about the prophets of old time which is scripture ,,peter is saying the scripture confirms and backs up our message to you

fox was way of the mark with that interpretation as you are sister maybe you should have not read so much doctrines of men and just meditate of the verses ,,maybe stop trying to fit verses in the bible into a jigsaw theology of men

has any one else got any thoughts on the verses in question

 2014/8/24 6:50Profile









 Re: a quote from George fox suspect

I suppose if we want to be most accurate then we had better place what the priest said in Nottingham in 1648/9 in their exact context.

“For we did not follow cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty. For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there was borne such a voice to him by the Majestic Glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased: and this voice we ourselves heard borne out of heaven, when we were with him in the holy mount. And we have the word of prophecy made more sure; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day-star arise in your hearts: knowing this first, that no prophecy of scripture is of private interpretation. For no prophecy ever came by the will of man: but men spake from God, being moved by the Holy Spirit.” (2 Peter 1:16–21)

We can very easily see that the words "And we have the word of prophecy made more sure; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed" speaks of the Father in Majesty bearing witness of the Son, even Christ Jesus, to Peter, James and John on the mountain, at which time both Moses and Elijah also appeared. But the context of the writing of these words is that of Peter bearing witness himself as an apostle of Christ, having heard these words with his own ears and the context in which we have them today is by the Scriptures. The means by which we apprehend them is by the Holy Spirit.

Perhaps if we are to be able to cut through the fog we would all be better served by knowing the Father, for which cause Christ came into the world.

If we want to be contentious we will have to be more accurate than Satan if by that means we are to be of any service to anyone.

As for sinless perfection I too clearly disbelieve it as some present it's meaning. It is also difficult not to see that Fox intended something by his words in which he claims that he was given surpassing revelation, by which he comprehended that in Christ we are to be restored to the sinless and perfect state which was in Adam before his disobedience. What he meant precisely by that seems to me to be an irrelevance.

In reading Fox I find that he seems to have been of the overwhelming view that the "Steeple Houses" were by and large filled with dead men professing Christ but having no true life in themselves. Hence why he placed his emphasis on seeing men and women in context of their general, natural and reasonable demeanour, which he called "ploughed fields". That term clearly is intended to mean a field prepared for planting. As planting in that sense would mean the propagation of the Gospel of Christ, then Fox appears to have been of the mind that if a person professing Christ, demonstrated by outward and visible means, decency, modesty, honestly, integrity, justice, and simple truthfulness, then they would by that means and their confession of Christ, be shown to be of Christ. If not then by rejecting such things, despite confessing Christ, they would be shown to be hypocrites and hence deluded and yet deceived.

The same High Sheriff to who's house Fox was taken after his few hours in a stinking prison, were received by Fox as true believers. He held many meeting to good effect in his house and to which meetings many high men and women attended. These men and all would have been members of the very same church in which Fox spoke the words which led to his arrest. Fox also demonstrates the meaning of this reality by bearing witness of the High Sheriff who's house he now resided awaiting his trial, a certain John Reckless, who challenged his deputy into recompensing a certain lady who was defrauded in a business deal by his hand. Fox was concerned with spiritual reality and not spiritual gymnastics.

I see Fox as having an eye for truth both in doctrine and conduct, but did not set doctrine to mean true salvation. Nor did he believe that good works were of themselves evidence of true faith. As with most things unless we ourselves have a balance we will inevitably subscribe to others the same offence which is in our own eye.

 2014/8/24 7:02





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