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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Did Jesus Mean This Literally?

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ZekeO
Member



Joined: 2004/7/4
Posts: 1014
Pietermaritzburg, South Africa

 Re:

I think Blaine, to challenge another persons conviction about a matter which really is not a salvation issue creates undue angst amongst brethren who may not have the same faith as you.

You are free to proceed, 12 gauge or not, but for the brothers and sisters who feel its their right as parents and protectors to arm themselves let God be the one who works that level of faith into their hearts.

Friends, this brings me to the one thought that has been going through my mind the whole time I have been following this thread. The goal of Christs commands is not for us to claim some security in the fact that we are obeying our Lord . Because that is what it really boils down to.

The goal of Christs commands is to totally expose that our understanding of righteousness and Gods are two totally different things. That without the gift of righteousness that is found in him no man could measure up to Gods requirement.

That was Jesus mission when he preached, to show, conclusively for all time that without him, without God himself taking the place of man, we can and could do nothing.


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Zeke Oosthuis

 2014/8/11 12:01Profile









 Re:

Zeke,

The one who challenges our convictions is Jesus Himself. I did not write the Sermon on the Mount. He did. That is why I asked did Jesus mean this literally.

Granted the topic under discussion is loving our enemies and not resisting an evil person. But in Mat. 5 thru 7 there is a broad range of commands and exhortations that compel us to live out His kingdom reality.

I indicated in an earlier post that the Sermon on the Mount is our guide to kingdom living. Some one took exception to my emphasizing the Sermon on the Mount at the expense of other scripture. Say the law given at Sinai. But we have non other then the Son of God Himself saying `You were told` But ` I (Jesus Christ) say`.

Here He establishes His right to rule with a new internal ethic of heart obedience as opposed to the old code of external obedience.

This is why Jesus says unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharrissees you cannot enter the kingdom of God. Jesus is speaking of an internal righteousness of the heart that supersedes the external righteousness of code.

The question for us us do we take the commands of the Sermon on the Mount to be binding on us.

Blaine

 2014/8/11 12:28
roadsign
Member



Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3776


 Re:

Quote:
… not resisting an evil person.


I realize that these words come from Jesus, but I think we need to be careful in our use of these words. This quote is about what NOT to do. And we are instinctively bent on focusing on what NOT to do. We tend to have a far smaller concept of what we actually can do – what God has given us for living godly lives in an evil world.

We are NOT called to be passivists but activists!

I’d say that we all have a wee bit of the proverbial fruit from the Garden of Eden still stuck between our teeth. Remember how Satan and Eve both distorted God’s truth by focusing on and even exaggerating the prohibitions. “… not even TOUCH the fruit,” said Eve. It was a lie she herself concocted.

We can subtly talk as if God is a miser: He won’t let us do things, not even things that are good for us, like protecting one another. Or we talk as if God is too small to handle the big stuff – like the burglar in our kitchen at night.

I really feel that this discussion is a bust if we cannot leave each other in utter awe over what we CAN do, what we DO have – in Christ. I believe we will do far better if we focus on nurturing the gifts of God rather than the extrapolation of evil.

Here’s the question: What HAS God given us – in Christ? And how can we let these gifts flourish in an evil and depraved world – and in that way see victory over the enemy – the REAL enemy?

For reflection: Is that, generally speaking, the main priority/focus of discussions on SI ... of my contributions?

Diane




_________________
Diane

 2014/8/11 13:00Profile
ZekeO
Member



Joined: 2004/7/4
Posts: 1014
Pietermaritzburg, South Africa

 Re:

Blain,

don't you see that this is impossible? Obviously not because we still talking about it;-D.

Quote:
But in Mat. 5 thru 7 there is a broad range of commands and exhortations that compel us to live out His kingdom reality.



Compelled by what? And for what reason?

Quote:
Jesus is speaking of an internal righteousness of the heart that supersedes the external righteousness of code



Thats the whole point that Jesus was trying to make, righteousness at this level is impossible for man to attain to, righteousness must be received as a gift, no man can measure up to the righteous requirements of God, accept one!

Quote:
The question for us us do we take the commands of the Sermon on the Mount to be binding on us.

For me, only so far as it drives me towards my saviour, because this is impossible for man to adhere to.


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Zeke Oosthuis

 2014/8/11 13:03Profile









 Re:

Zeke,

If you are saying the commands of the Sermon on the Mount cannot be lived out in the flesh then I agree. To live out the reality of Christ`s commands is as impossible as trying to keep the moral law of Sinai.

But I was implying, but let me state explicitly. That if one confesses faith in Jesus Christ. If one is born again. And if one has the Spirit if Christ Himself living within them. THEN one can keep the commands of Christ as articulated in the Sermon on the Mount. Even loving our enemies. This is why Dirk Willen could do good and save his enemy. He was filled with the Spirit of Jesus.

Jesus reminds us in John 15 that apart from Him. That is Him living in us and we in Him we can do nothing. But then Paul declare in Phil. 4 I can do all things through Christ who gives me strength.

Brother if we do not have the power of Christ in us then the Sermon on the Mount is nothing more than esoteric sayings giving sweet filler to Mathew.

But the Sermon on the Mount are actually the law of Christ written on our hearts by the Holy Spirit who.lives in us. Through Him we live out His commands which John tells us are not burdensome.

Blaine

 2014/8/11 13:30









 Re: Can the Sermon on the Mount be Lived Out?

Brethren I think the two post by Diane and Zeke bring forth a question. Perhaps restating what was originally asked in this thread.

My question is can a Spirit-filled Christian live out the reality of the Sermon on the Mount

Blaine

 2014/8/11 13:49
Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 1994
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

The thought came to mind, "Did Jesus mean this literally, 'If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out...And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off"? That's from the same chapter and the same sermon. What's my point? There is an underlying principle behind those commands to pluck out and cut off one's body parts, namely, stay away from sin because it is serious in God's sight.

So what is the underlying principle behind the commands to turn the other cheek and not to resist an evil person. Basically, we must not have a vengeful heart toward those who would harm us but rather a heart of love toward them no matter what. This kind of loving example we see clearly displayed in the NT, beginning with our Lord Himself as He prayed from the cross, "Father forgive them for they know not what they do", and then continuing with the first martyr Stephen. In the case of our Lord He willingly submitted himself to the governing authorities when it was time for Him to die for our sins. In the case of Stephen he willingly submitted himself to the governing religious authorities and he was trapped and outnumbered so there was no possible way for him to escape.

But again, that does not negate the allowance and need to protect one's self or family or neighbor when there is a need and opportunity to do so. I know that can seem to sound like a contradiction but there is none really.

Someone can read those verses about not resisting evil and turning the other cheek and think, "Well, that means there should never be any kind of war to resist any supposed evil at all." That's exactly what many unsaved war protesters have tried to say about those verses. But we know from other parts of scripture that being a soldier is not in itself a sin and there is law enforcement ordained of God to protect from evil.

Does this command to love our enemies also apply to Christian police officers while on duty? Surely it does apply to them also, even while on duty, doesn't it? But how is it possible for them to love someone while at the same time trying to shoot them with a gun in order to stop them from committing a murder?


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Oracio

 2014/8/11 14:30Profile
havok20x
Member



Joined: 2008/9/14
Posts: 785


 Re:

Let's look at Micah 6:8

"He has shown you, O man, what is good;
And what does the Lord require of you
But to do justly,
To love mercy,
And to walk humbly with your God?"

These verses are really extraordinary.

The first thing God commands is that we do justly.

Justice is important to God. Helping and defending the innocent, the orphan, the widow, etc. Those things are indeed very important to the Lord. And we ought to seek justice. We ought to pursue it as believers in Christ. But look what the next line is.

We are to love mercy. Our desire to pursue justice should be tempered by loving mercy. That means that if I have the opportunity to show mercy, then it should be my natural reaction to do so.

Lastly, we are to walk humbly with our God. We don't lift our selves up or exalt ourselves above others, but we put ourselves in our proper place--at the feet of Christ, apart from Whom we can do nothing.


**************************

I desire to love my enemies. But I am not going to love them in such a way that I despise the innocent by letting my enemies run over them. What if I don't kill an intruder, I just pin him down on the ground and turn him into the police. Is that loving? The guy is going to go to jail. He is likely to stay there a long while, too. That doesn't sound very merciful or very loving at all. But the issue isn't whether I loved my enemy enough, it is whether I did it correctly. I can love him and seek to be merciful to him, but not at the expense of my loved ones. We can sound all religious by saying that Christians ought not to ever resist an enemy, but that is not what this passage says.

Somebody, please show me an example in the Scriptures where someone threw an innocent, defenseless person under the bus in order to love their enemies.

If you look for those examples, it NEVER speaks well of them. Think of Absolom and David. Think of what resulted because David refused to defend the innocent and seek justice.

 2014/8/11 15:47Profile
brothagary
Member



Joined: 2011/10/23
Posts: 1861


 Re:

i have to go to work ,,,but just quicky ,,,you bother hit the nail on the head oraco and havoc ,,that is keep the scripture in context and not isolating scripture


dian that is a pefect example of turning the comand to love our neibours in to love our enemys nulafify the word of god through ones traditions thats what saying before

samaritans are brothers of the jews and neibors in a real scence part of the tribes of jacobs ,,,jesus is saying they are also your neoubours ,,so treat them as such ,,the seconed comand extends to them ,,jesus is saying there not you enemys they worship the same god ,,,,,,

dian theres no fear in me so that is a false acuasations rember fear is sin .sos it is best you dont accuse people of being in sisn unless you are verry sure about that .,,i take the comand to not be afraid literaly and bind ,,,,maby it is not me that is breaking that comand,,,cheak your heart and be convinced in your own mind sister

blessings

 2014/8/11 16:05Profile
Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 1994
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

Amen havok20x. But some will say, that was all OT.

As a brief side note here, when Jesus said, "you have heard it said to those of old..But I say to you...", He was correcting the peoples' understanding of God's moral law. The religious leaders had twisted and clouded the true intent and meaning of God's moral law. Our Lord was emphasizing the true spiritual nature of God's moral law. But He was not doing away with the moral law revealed in the OT. That moral law is now called the law of Christ in the NT.

However, when Jesus said, "You have heard it said...", without the qualifying, "to those of old", He was rejecting their own made up traditions that were not even part of the OT law.


_________________
Oracio

 2014/8/11 16:15Profile





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