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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Did Jesus Mean This Literally?

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 Re: The Two Swords

Mention has been made of the two swords account in Luke 22:35-38. Here Jesus tells his disciples if they do not have a sword to go buy one. The disciples respond here are two swords. Jesus says that is enough.

Some have taking these verses to mean that Jesus is giving approval to self defense with carnal weapons. This is erroneous. And it does not fit with the context of the verses.

Diane has given some valid reasons in her post why the disciples were not going to use the swords for self defense. For one thing the disciples were not military men trained in the art of sword fight. And no where do you see the disciples carrying swords on their missionary journeys..

So why is Jesus telling his disciples to get a sword. I believe to teach an object lesson on his way to the cross.

Consider Lk. 22:49 when the disciples ask Lord should we strike with our swords. After Peter cuts off Malchas`s ear Jesus says to stop. No more of this. The account in Matthew gives further explanation. In Mat. 26:52 when Peter pulls out his sword to defend Jesus. Jesus tells him to put his sword away. For those who take up the sword will perish by the sword.

A few things come out in the above account. The first thing is that Jesus is living out his teaching in Matthew about resisting evil man. Here he is providing an example of what he taught in the Sermon on the Mount.

The next thing that comes out is that evil is not to be resisted with a carnal weapons of man. Indeed to use the carnal weapons of man to resist evil will result in death of the one using the weapon.

the third thing that comes out is that Jesus is living out the reality of His Kingdom which is not of this world.

At this point I must go to the account of John 18:36. Here Jesus says to Pilot that my kingdom is not of this realm. He goes on to say that if His kingdom where of this world his servants would fight to prevent Him from being handed over by the Jews.

The kingdom of Jesus is not advanced to the carnal weapons of man. But the kingdom of Jesus is advanced to the spiritual weapons of righteousness.

I hope to say more on this in a later post.

Blaine Scogin

 2014/8/9 9:43









 Re:

Gary are you trained in fire arms? Do you have a conceal and carry permit? Have you ever discharged a fire arm at another person or taken a life? Are you prepared to live with the consequences of taking a life?

These are questions that you and others will need to consider as you as you expound in defending your families.

 2014/8/9 9:53









 Re:

Brethren I recently spoke with a military chaplain. I asked him if he had counseled those who had taking lives during war. He said yes. I asked him what he observed. The chaplain responded those he counseled felt they have lost part of their soul. By taking a life even in the context if war those counseled felt they had lost part of the humanity.

Even police who draw their weapons and discharge them in the line of duty and take a life often cannot live what the consequences of what they have done.

I believe these are some sobering things that need to be considered before we start take up carnal weapons for self defense.

Blaine

 2014/8/9 9:59
Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 1994
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

Quote:
This manner of Biblical interpretation is called isogesis – putting INTO the text – as opposed to exegesis. It’s putting into the text the interpreters own presuppositions and self-justifications.


I disagree that I was doing that. Eisegesis is when you isolate a certain part of scripture without considering the context or the whole of scripture. Biblical exegesis takes into account the whole counsel of God's Word and tries to be faithful to all of it not just some isolated portion, knowing that scripture interprets scripture and cannot contradict itself. Eisegesis can be seen in pitting Jesus' words against Paul's words, or isolating certain words of Christ without considering other portions of His teaching.


_________________
Oracio

 2014/8/9 10:09Profile
Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 1994
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

Quote:
Quote:

We must consider the whole counsel of God … In Luke 22:37-38 our Lord told the disciples to continue carrying the two swords they had already been carrying. Swords were carried for protection against murderers.


I don’t think so! Imagine going after a Roman legion with 2 swords! It’s a joke! It’s like carrying around a water pistol. Imagine a Chinese believer today who is being chased by the authorities. He is carrying a “sword” in case he gets caught by an armed guard. How much hope is there for him if he kills the fellow chasing him? There are 10 million more enemies in the sidelines.
Is Jesus not using irony here to get his point across?



By you saying Jesus is using irony there one can argue you are committing eisegis, reading into the text what is not there.

My point was not that Christ was commanding them to carry swords to protect them from the Roman army, but in self-defense from other individual criminals who may want to kill them. It's like having a gun, baseball bat, knife or pepper spray to fend off someone trying to break into your home to kill you or your family.

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Romans 13:3-5 … you must be subject….

So God appoints certain "moral" governing authorities for the restraining of evil in this world. ...

Jesus and also Paul were speaking to Jewish audiences under Roman occupation (hardly a moral gov’t!) In 70 AD many of these Jews disobeyed this very caution and rose up against the Romans. You know the outcome!
The reason for being “subject” to the ruling authorities, (avoid resisting them with power strategies) is for your good. Vengeance has a nasty way of falling back on you. Leave vengeance to God. THAT is a biblical truth.

It’s amazing how much vengeance and power mongering happens in the name of “self-defense”.
Anger and fear are the driving motives – and these motives have no brakes – even among the “people of God”. History proves it to be true.

Diane



By "moral" I think I tried making it clear I did not mean upright or godly, but simply a certain disposition to protect the innocent, that's all. In that sense you can say the police department is "moral" in that they protect the innocent(again, "innocent" in a certain sense), as opposed to them unjustly breaking into homes to do harm to people.


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Oracio

 2014/8/9 10:27Profile
Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 1994
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

Quote:
by Oracio on 2014/8/8 20:16:03

So bear, what would you say about Hitler and Nazi Germany? Was it wrong to go to war against him to stop the massive genocide of Jews and others and the taking over of the world by him?

___________

I know this was address to bear but I just wanted to add we did not go to war against hilter because he was killing the Jews. We entered WWII because our interests were attacked in Pearl Harbor. In fact the US was asked to help before Pearl Harbor but resisted getting involved until after we were attacked. I don't think you can say the US went into WWII with the motive to protect the Jews.

God Bless
maryjane


Sister, thanks for that clarification. I honestly have not done much study on WWI and WWII. But what I do know is that Hitler and Nazi Germany were responsible for the holocaust and it was not just the Jewish people who were targeted. Regardless of the motives of the US in entering into war against Hitler, we know that it resulted in the elimination of one of the most horrendous evils that has ever come into history. So I guess my main point was, was it God's will for Hitler and Nazi Germany to be stopped through the war? I'd say it was an act of mercy from God.


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Oracio

 2014/8/9 10:36Profile
roadsign
Member



Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3776


 Re:

Quote:
Jesus said love our neighbors ,,not let them be raped and murdered ,beaten ,,he hasn't said that any where in the bible ,,it make me sick to hear ,,i hope noby ever leave there children in you care , blain



Here is an unfortunate divide among the people of God – an expressed distrust towards a brother assuming that unwillingness to use force is synonymous with condoning violence.

We’ve also seen here a theology based on imagined worst-case scenarios. It’s called situation ethics. And this is why every person should put a gun under their pillow. BTW, This is why I dread ever having to find myself in need during the night in a USA city. If I knock on a door for help, the first impulse of the owner might be: “Yikes! A murderer! Quick get the gun! Bang!!” And I’m dead.
That’s human nature’s response to fear: fight or flight, right?

There are countless situations of injustice which are NOT remote:
1. What do you do for the child you meet in the supermarket who is being treated abusively by a domineering angry mother? The child may grow up to vent his anger on his girlfriend (rape).
2. What are you going to do with the poor person who is designated to that lot in life forever because of social policies? (I.e., He stays passive and dumb the rest of his life – feeding off social assistance)
3. What are you going to do for the church board member who is being scapegoated by more dominant personalities.

All that to say: While we might refuse to “allow” one injustice (imagined), we are blindly overlooking thousands of destructive injustices (actual).

Here’s the main issue at stake in this discussion:
If we center our calling on the extrapolation of evil, we will do little to foster the gifts of grace – those qualities which make better people and a better society (and less murderers, rapists, and enemies).

Tragically, this is a bent in historical Christianity. The gifts of grace (our moral duty) get eclipsed by the mission to fight evil- or, rather, perceived evils. (NOT our moral duty)

Think of the human devastation this has caused historically by a church bent on exterminating “evil” (who often were the truly godly).

Are we here in the very act of repeating history?
Just after 9/11 I heard in a press interview where Franklin Graham was asked if he supported the use of weapons of mass destruction against Iraq (ie, terrorists). Graham responded with a resounding affirmative. That shocked me!

Now, we see the suffering of our brothers and sisters in Iraq, caused by an unstable gov’t! Will God not hold accountable his people in the most powerful nation in the world – those who had been given the power of the Spirit to advance his kingdom with love and grace, going “the second mile”, etc, and in that way promoting repentance, and helping create a better world.

Quote:
and we should support and pray for our police and soldiours that are gods ministers who preform his duties


Yes, prayer is needed since these are among the people most prone to misuse their power and contribute to escalation rather than de-escalation of violence.

Diane







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Diane

 2014/8/9 10:47Profile
MaryJane
Member



Joined: 2006/7/31
Posts: 3057


 Re:

Sister, thanks for that clarification. I honestly have not done much study on WWI and WWII. But what I do know is that Hitler and Nazi Germany were responsible for the holocaust and it was not just the Jewish people who were targeted. Regardless of the motives of the US in entering into war against Hitler, we know that it resulted in the elimination of one of the most horrendous evils that has ever come into history. So I guess my main point was, was it God's will for Hitler and Nazi Germany to be stopped through the war? I'd say it was an act of mercy from God.

________

You said it was an act of GOD'S mercy to have the US take out Hitler...Did you know the US left Stalin in control after WWII and he is responsible for killing and bringing about the death of even more people then Hilter was.

What interesting is that we went in and took Saddam Hussian out of power and that is what has created all of this instability in Iraq today. This kind of open persecution of Christians is a result of that instability.

Just some things to consider...

God Bless
maryjane

 2014/8/9 10:57Profile
Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 1994
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

There is no question that Islamist terrorists are trying to take over many parts of the world, including the west, as much as they possibly can and by whatever means. IMO this is the new "Hitler and Natzi Germany".

My grief is in hearing believers complain about people (men woman and children, Christian and non-Christian) receiving some aid and protection from the US. If we were those people we would be thankful for whatever help we can get from any other nations.


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Oracio

 2014/8/9 11:04Profile
Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 1994
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

Sister Mary, I understand your point and where you are coming from. The only thing I'd say is that if there are people, including many children being beheaded and murdered by the masses it is our responsibility to weep with those who weep and to ask God to intervene on their behalf, just like the believers were fervently praying for Peter's well-being when he was put in prison.


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Oracio

 2014/8/9 11:09Profile





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