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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : The Lord's Supper/Communion.

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Man0fG0d
Member



Joined: 2012/5/27
Posts: 174


 Re:

Evening to you guys, how is everybody? I've been trying to finish up 2 jobs today, so I've been busy.

Bro havoc, you Will have to educate me, I'm not a smart Person. What is Gnosticism?

Krautfrau, I have studied the Scriptures. The Bible says All Scripture it's given by Inspiration of God. That means every Scripture has its perfect place, and purpose and in no way does it contradict. The Word of God is pure, and infallible.

Jesus told the multitude in John 6 unless they eat His flesh and drink His blood they would not have eternal life. Jesus is the Word, so He was telling them if they did not Partake of the Word of God, if they did not eat and drink the Word they would not have eternal life.

Their fathers ate Manna in the wilderness and are dead. There are many churches today that are trying to feed the multitude "manna" such as their opinions, thoughts, belief and doctrines, but Jesus said if ye want eternal life ye must eat His flesh, and drink His blood. You must live off Him, because He is the way, truth, and life.

So what does the Word say? That Jesus took His disciples into an upper room and that He gave them bread to eat and drink from the vine. He said do this in remembrance of me.

What does the Word say? That the disciples in Acts broke bread, and took Communion. Is Communion Spiritual? ABSOLUTELY! Paul said in 1 corinthians 11 that as oft ye eat this bread and drink this cup ye do shew the Lord's death Till He come.

The Bible also says that Faith without works is dead! So Jesus and the Apostles physically took Communion! Paul didn't tell the Corinthian church that Communion was only symbolic, or only a spiritual thing. He Told them what it stood for, and why they did it ( spiritual). Then He Told them to examine themselves and how to go about doing it (physical.)

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If you haven't been baptized into Christ then Water Baptism does you no Good. The Bible said if any man be in Christ, He is a new Creature. Old things are passed away (dead) all things are become new.

When we repent of our sins and are saved, we are buried with Christ, and Baptized into His death. God raises us up as new creatures, Quickened by the Spirit, alive in Christ. We have been made new, and filled with His Spirit.

After the sinner has repented of His sins and is buried and risen with Christ, He is to be baptized for the remission of sins according the Scripture. To show that He is no longer who he once was but He has died and resurrected in Christ (symbol) He gets baptized (physical).

Where Jesus, Paul, Peter, Phillip, John and all the other Apostles baptized in the Spirit? Yes. Did Jesus command His Disciples to Baptize new converts in water? Yes. Did Jesus get baptized in water? Yes. After Jesus was baptized did John continue to Baptize in water? Yes. Did Jesus baptize people in water? Yes.

After Jesus ascended to the Father, Did the Apostles continue to Baptize converts in water? Yes, after they were saved and Filled with the Spirit of God. Did any of the Apostles dismiss water baptism as mere symbolism
As they're death and resurrection with Christ? No, they took them to be baptized.

My dear friend, if Jesus commanded it, we must obey it. If the church we read about in the Bible did it, We must do it. We must be baptized in the Spirit and we must uphold water baptism. I am in no way arguing Scripture. Scripture is Scripture and it is all right. It is also all important.

Sorry it's taken me so long to reply i worked a crazy day today. Hope you're doing well. Love you.


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Elijah

 2014/7/25 0:06Profile
Sidewalk
Member



Joined: 2011/11/11
Posts: 703
San Diego

 Re:

I love your energy, ManOfGOd!

Gnostics believe that spiritual things are good, physical things are bad. In the annals of Christendom, gnostics taught men to neglect their bodies to "punish" the evil flesh, to regard sexual intercourse as evil, even eating tasty food was wrong. It was an easy trap for the self-righteous to wallow in pride and oppress others.

Paul deals with this in several places, I like his direct shot in Colossians 2:23 where he describes these self degrading practices as having an appearance of wisdom in man-made religion, but as having no value in restraining the flesh.

Gnosticism is prolific in Eastern religions with Zen and Karma concepts, men striving to accommodate the spiritual world they know surrounds them, but refusing the Lord Jesus Christ who is the source of all genuine spiritual wisdom.

Alas they become easy prey for Satan who prowls the dark streets of the spiritual nether world seeking agents for his deceptive criminal enterprise.


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Tom Cameron

 2014/7/25 1:37Profile









 Re:

Quote:
ust because I understand perfectly (and I am not saying I do) what baptism and communion are about does not mean that I dont' have to do them anymore (not that baptism is continuous). If I understand what communion is about, then that ought to make me desire to do it more. If I understand why people are baptized, then that should make me want to see it happen as close to conversion as possible.



Dear havok20x

It is not merely about understanding, it is having the spiritual realities made effective. Feeding on Him by faith, means that we have His life in us and we are walking as He walked, in absolute obedience to the father. In this case, partaking in the symbols is meaningless, as the prophecy they symbolised, have been fulfilled in us.

Baptism is continuous. Being baptised in the Spirit is a moment by moment yielding to Him which can end at any time.

 2014/7/25 3:54









 Re:

Dear Man

When Jesus told them to show forth His death, it was for the period that He was gone. He did return to them, alive from the dead, and then at Pentecost, they were made part of Him through the Holy Spirit. Not all who come to Christ are immediately baptised in the Spirit, and have their own Pentecost, and for these, partaking in the elements, is to encourage them for what is to come, if they follow Him according to the Apostles teaching and desire holiness. Sadly many do not and disbelieve what the Lord wanted to achieve for us in the restoration.

It is the same for water baptism, it is a token and a prophecy of what is to come, hopefully.

So this is why we still see the sacraments taking place in the early church.

What happens to a person who does not partake in the physical forms thinking that they are spiritually applied in them?

 2014/7/25 4:01
havok20x
Member



Joined: 2008/9/14
Posts: 785


 Re:

One of the tenets of gnosticism is that God is a dark, mysterious God who cannot be known except by secret knowledge.

Gnostics easily snuck into the church because they taught that young, naive Christians would believe a certain way, but those who were mature would have a totally different, more-or-less secret set of beliefs. It was rather strange. They definitely taught 2-tier christianity.

 2014/7/25 9:21Profile









 Re:

havok20x

Quote:
Gnostics easily snuck into the church because they taught that young, naive Christians would believe a certain way, but those who were mature would have a totally different, more-or-less secret set of beliefs. It was rather strange. They definitely taught 2-tier christianity.



They did not teach holiness though, as a reality not as a spiritual holiness that can be contained in a sinful body. In fact what is being taught in the church ie that we can sin and still be in Him is actually gnosticism.

 2014/7/25 9:38
Sidewalk
Member



Joined: 2011/11/11
Posts: 703
San Diego

 Re:

I agree with Havok and Krautfrau, gnosticism is a way to separate flesh and spirit in such a way as to condemn sinful flesh and yet continue to enjoy debauchery- believing one's spiritual affairs are in perfect order.

It is the pinnacle of human arrogance to believe we can put one over on God!


_________________
Tom Cameron

 2014/7/25 11:31Profile
Man0fG0d
Member



Joined: 2012/5/27
Posts: 174


 Re:

1 Timothy 4:1 KJV
Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

Thank you for teaching me Sidewalk and Havoc. Gnosticism sounds like a doctrine of devils as described in the Scripture above.

Thank you Krautfrau, for encouraging me to study the Scripture more. Once again, I must apologize for answering so late. I just got out of church, We had an awesome service the Spirit of God came down and helped people Tonight. Pray for us that we make it Home safely.

It is very important for us as Christians to be in Communion with Christ everyday through Prayer and partaking of the Word of God. However, we must remember that after Jesus was resurrected and after He ascended to the right hand of God that The Apostles still took Communion, and that P that When Paul taught the Corinthian church how to go about taking Communion, He didn't just tell them that it was symbolic but He told them to examine themselves so that could be clean. In order to take communion we must be righteous and have a relationship with Christ.

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Are you saying that water baptism is only a prophecy of the Baptism of the Holy Ghost? The Bible says that Jesus came to Baptize us with the Holy Ghost and with Fire however after the Holy Ghost descended the Lord did not do away with water Baptism. Consider these Scriptures:

Acts 10:44-48 KJV
While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. [45] And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. [46] For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, [47] Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? [48] And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

These disciples were already baptized in the Holy Ghost. Yet Peter still commanded them to be baptized in water. He did not dismiss the water baptism as something only symbolic, or as a shadow of things to come. This shows us that both the Baptism of the Holy Ghost and the Baptism of water are important. If the Lord commanded His disciples to do it we must obey Him.

To answer your question, the Bible says we must grow in grace and wisdom. That we must study to shew thyself approved unto God. We must Pray that those who do not physically partake of these ordinances because they think they're only symbols read the Bible and come to the acknowledgement of the truth.

We must also pray for those who physically participate in these instructions without daily being in Communion with Christ and who have no living relationship with God.

Faith without works is dead. If ye love me keep my commandments. If ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the flesh, ye shall live.

Matthew 23:25 KJV
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.

Matthew 23:23... These ought ye to have done, and not have left the other undone.

Jesus said man shall not live by bread alone but by every Word of God.

Love you brother hope you have a goodnight.


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Elijah

 2014/7/25 23:49Profile









 Re:

Quote:
It is very important for us as Christians to be in Communion with Christ everyday through Prayer and partaking of the Word of God. However, we must remember that after Jesus was resurrected and after He ascended to the right hand of God that The Apostles still took Communion, and that P that When Paul taught the Corinthian church how to go about taking Communion, He didn't just tell them that it was symbolic but He told them to examine themselves so that could be clean. In order to take communion we must be righteous and have a relationship with Christ.



The only record we have of Christians taking communion, which does not include the apostles, is when Paul is talking about the Corinthians bad behaviour regarding the meal at their gatherings,and reminding them that the Lord's Supper, also signified that they were all to be of one body, not to be divided into rich and poor.

It was the principle behind it that he was explaining, and where they were wrong in being greedy and they were eating unworthily, and were guilty of the body and blood of the Lord not discerning the Lord's body ie the church members.

He was not giving instructions on how to conduct the ritual, this they already knew and all of those who were waiting for the Lord to come to keep reminding themselves of His promise to come to them as His true presence as the bread of life and the vine.

I will quote some Quaker understanding here:

Quote:
1Cor.11:26, which states that "whoever partakes of the bread and the cup proclaims His death until He comes."
Fox sees a definite "time limit" for observing an eating/drinking ordinance, and that time limit is reached when the believer senses the Presence of the Risen Christ. Fox will then immediately jump to I John 5:20, as a biblical confirmation of his (and other early Quakers): "And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, to know him who is true; and we are in him who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life." For Fox, the limit Paul describes in 1 Corinthians is fulfilled; Christ is present. Why proclaim Christ's death when He is alive and present. When the Bridegroom is present, it is a time of celebration, not mourning.



You wrote:

Quote:
These disciples were already baptized in the Holy Ghost. Yet Peter still commanded them to be baptized in water. He did not dismiss the water baptism as something only symbolic, or as a shadow of things to come. This shows us that both the Baptism of the Holy Ghost and the Baptism of water are important. If the Lord commanded His disciples to do it we must obey Him.



Once again, the scripture tells us that there is one baptism not two, and we are looking at a period in history when it had to be made clear to the Jews, that their religion was now superceeded by Christ, from the physical signs and shadows to the spiritual which Jesus demonstrated clearly at His own water baptism, which was otherwise un-necessary.

They also kept the ritual of circumcision for a while and it was not banned. They just needed time to understand and adjust and also for them to come to the end of serving Christ in their flesh and have the true communion with Him which most find later on in their walk.

I don't think we will argue regarding the immaturity of the Corthinthians.

Thanks you for your kind words brother but I am in fact a sister.

 2014/7/26 4:30
Man0fG0d
Member



Joined: 2012/5/27
Posts: 174


 Re:

Sister, I do apologize. That felt like one of those open mouth insert foot moments. Did you have a good weekend?

The Bible says that Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by thr Word of God. Sister, history has nothing to do with this. These were clear commandments given out by the Lord, that we must obey. The reason Jesus was baptized was because (in His own Words) He had to fulfill all righteousness. If Jesus only got baptized as a symbol of something greater, He would have said that. God was pleased with Jesus because He was obedient to the Father, because He did what was required to please Him

Baptism wasn't just a Jewish custom, it was something commanded by Jesus to every nation the disciples went into. In the book of acts we readthat the gentitles were Baptized in the Holy Ghost and then got baptized in water.

You said the Jews had to be shown that their religion was superseded by Christ. I agree, religion killed Jesus. However, look at this verse.

Acts 10:47 KJV
Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

Peter said that they(the gentiles) had received the Holy Ghost as well as we (the group of Jews with Him)

These Jews had the Holy Ghost, If what you say was true then they would've known better and would've told Peter that that wasn't necessary since they had been baptized with the Holy Ghost already and water baptism was only a symbol of the Holy Ghost Baptism.

But they didn't forbid him, or say anything to turn him from that. Because they knew it was a commandment!

Jesus was baptized, The disciples were Baptized. The Jews got baptized; the gentiles got Baptized, we read also about an Ethiopian man getting baptized! They all wanted to be like Christ and fulfill all righteousness.

Sis, we must not take History over the Word of God. History may say that
Water Baptism was only for a certain time period but what about the Scripture where it says Jesus Christ the same yesterday, today, and forever?

History says that Noah was a drunk who sold Beer, history says that Jesus was a Homosexual and also had an affair with Mary Magdalene. History says that the bones of Jesus were discovered a couple years ago.

This is why Jesus said man shall not live by bread alone but by every Word of God.

History may say many things but on Judgement day we will be judged by the Word of God. That is why we must study to shew ourselves approved unto God. We read in the Word that the Church continued in these instructions after Christ ascended and after the Holy Ghost came. We do not read in the Scripture where these are called symbols are dismissed as no longer needed.

If the Bible says it as Christians we must believe it.


Again, I apologize for the mix up. I felt Terrible about that. I Pray that you are doing well. Thanks again and God bless.


_________________
Elijah

 2014/7/27 23:13Profile





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