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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : The Lord's Supper/Communion.

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TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5305
NC, USA

 Re:

I understand KF; however if even the earliest Friends did not practice baptism or holy communion they were disobeying the commands of The Lord.


_________________
Todd

 2014/7/23 16:05Profile
havok20x
Member



Joined: 2008/9/14
Posts: 785


 Re:

Quote:

There are so many individual ideas about the meaning of the Communion elements, but if you believe they symbolize taking in more of Christ to become more conformed to Him, you would have no reservations of taking it alone.



Does this concept appear in Scripture? I am not sure where to find the idea that taking communion = "taking in more of Christ". I also don't think that it symbolizes that either, but I could be wrong. I have not studied much on it. Scriptures would be great! Thanks!

 2014/7/23 16:39Profile
Sidewalk
Member



Joined: 2011/11/11
Posts: 703
San Diego

 Re: Foundation for communion thought

Havok,

Two things come to mind regarding the scriptural basis for "eating the elements" of communion.

The first is Jesus' cry to His disciples and the crowd, "Unless you eat My flesh and drink My blood, you have no part of me!"

We can hopefully agree that He was not inviting cannibalism, but rather using a graphic illustration confirmed later when He spoke to the disciples of making His abode within them. By the Spirit, it is His desire to live within us, able to work from within a submitted vessel. To me, the communion elements proclaim this substance of the relationship.

The other reference would be Exodus 12: 8-11 where the children of Israel are commanded to eat the Passover lamb, and they are required to eat it all, leaving nothing uneaten by morning.

Jesus is our fulfillment of that Old Testament type, He is the true Lamb of God, and our Bread of life.

Jesus Himself once told the disciples that He had bread about which they did not know, speaking of the hunger satisfaction He received from doing the Father's will. Again, the connections are not physical- but very real none the less.

Hope that helps?


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Tom Cameron

 2014/7/23 17:25Profile
havok20x
Member



Joined: 2008/9/14
Posts: 785


 Re:

Got it! Thanks!

 2014/7/23 18:11Profile
Man0fG0d
Member



Joined: 2012/5/27
Posts: 174


 Re:

Greetings to you all. Brother Havoc I apologize for posting so late, been running all over the past 2 days. To answer your question yes, but I would first make sure that they have a proper understanding as to why we take communion, and the consequences of taking it unworthily. Myself, I have taught others this for a while now because I just don't want to remember what Jesus did for me in church, but at home as well.

Jesus said do this in remembrance of me; when Jesus took it with His disciples we must remember they weren't at church, they were at a house(Luke 22:10) the disciples went from house to house breaking bread (acts 2:46).

Once again for lack of time,must cut it short. Lord Willing tonight I'll get back on and comment some more. I'm headed to church, Pray for us. Love you all and God bless.


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Elijah

 2014/7/23 18:23Profile
Man0fG0d
Member



Joined: 2012/5/27
Posts: 174


 Re:

Kratfrau, what I say, I say in love. The question is not what Will others think, but what does God think? What does His Word say? So often, we as people try to please the crowd and in doing so we deny Christ and miss out with God.

We have talked about communion, but did you know that baptism is a commandment as well? In fact, it was the Son of God, Jesus Christ Himself who said

Matthew 28:19-20 KJV
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: [20] Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Jesus commands His disciples to go and teach all nations, and when they have come to the acknowledgement of who Christ is and what He has done by the Work on the Cross, and after they repent He says baptize them!

He goes on to say that the Disciples must teach the new converts to observe the commandments that Lord Gave them. So not only is He telling the disciples to Baptize but He is saying teach them the commandments so that when they spiritually mature enough to teach others that they baptize also.


We see from the Scriptures that Jesus commanded the Disciples to Baptize. Not only that, but Jesus believed in Baptism so much, He was baptized Himself (matt 3). Why? Jesus tells John He needs to be baptized to fulfill all righteous. He knew He couldn't teach us to do something He hadn't done Himself. He was baptized not to be cleansed,(as some think) He is Sinless, but rather to show to the world that He is clean.

Having said all that, my point is this. As Christians, we are called to be like Christ. Christ taught Communion and Baptism. Christ took Communion and was baptized. If Jesus thought it was important enough that He did it, shouldn't we do it?

He said in John 14:15 if ye love me keep my commandments.

The Quakers were great people, but we must examine them in light of God's Word. The Muslims pray 5 times a day, the Jehovah Witness send people out everyday to invite people to their church, despite those good traits they do not line up with God's Word an that is what we must Judge by.

Love you all, Hope everybody is doing well. God bless.


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Elijah

 2014/7/23 23:23Profile









 Re: To TMK and ManofGod

Brothers

My point about the Quakers, and I must emphasize that I mean the early development and not what is seen today, which has very little to do with what they were then, is that, the greatest revival that ever occurred in England, was amongst them.

As in true revivals, the effect on the areas in which it took place, was astonishing and even today, can still be felt in England, as it radically changed the society.

Seeing all men as equals, brought about massive changes and made Britain to be a world leader in social reform. It is rapidly disappearing, but up until now, the disabled and sick have been cared for generously, and prisoners treated with more respect than in other places. Until recently, you could expect the government to provide the care and help you needed in adversity. That is why so many have flocked to live here.

There was also revival and a great deal of social change due to the Salvation Army under General Booth, and they did not take communion or baptize in water either.

I am not saying that revival came *because* of these beliefs, which are entirely scriptural, otherwise they, as born again believers, would not have accepted them, just a different interpretation of the text, but revival came anyway, which seems to demolish your arguments about it being so important for them to be obeyed in the physical sense you are claiming.

If your church which practices them in this way, is living like the early Quakers did, then you have an argument, but I know that it is not because if it was, the whole world would be looking at it and there would be revival. Does your church treat the sick and vulnerable like the others and provide for all of their needs? Well the early Quakers lived like that. Is your church changing your society as regards to social injustice? Well they were doing that.

So they showed that they kept the commandments better than your church are doing. They taught baptism in the Spirit to cleanse a man from all sin, and that we are to feed on the body and blood of Christ moment by moment so that His life is manifest in us and we do not sin.

The reason why the Jewish ceremonies of baptism and communion continued during the early years of the church, were to show that they were being superceeded by Christ, particularly shown by Him in His own baptism when the Holy Spirit descended like a dove, which fully explained what the symbol of the water baptism under the OC meant, and was to be replaced by.

Those who had come to a deeper understanding of what these symbols signified, and were cleansed from sin, were no longer required to continue in them, but for others, they could continue to encourage themselves for a future hope.

It is not wrong to interpret the sacraments in this physical symbolic way, but there should come a time when the symbols are fulfilled in our lives with the spiritual reality they came to signify, and where we can see the deeper meaning of them.

So I am not saying that brethren should not be continuing in the general understanding of them if they wish, but that it cannot be proven from history that it is absolutely vital to do so, and a short investigation of those who did not, and believed in the spiritual understanding of the elements, will show some of the most holy productive saints we have ever seen in the church.

 2014/7/24 4:02
Man0fG0d
Member



Joined: 2012/5/27
Posts: 174


 Re:

Good morning Krautfrau, thanks for the reply. I'm on the way to work right now but let me ask you a question: Where is your Scripture to back up what you say? Please show me in the Bible.

I look forward to your reply, have a good day.


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Elijah

 2014/7/24 7:55Profile









 Re:

ManOfGOd

Of Baptism and the Lord's Supper:

The Lord's Supper is Spiritual (not with the elements of bread and wine) (Jn. 6:32-58 and Rev.3: 20).


John 6:53–57

53 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. 55 For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. 56 Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so whoever feeds on me, he also will live because of me.

There is also only one Baptism (Eph. 4:5). This is the Baptism of the Holy Spirit not the baptism in water (Acts 1:4,5).


1 Peter 3:21

21 Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.


Romans 6:3–7

3 Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.

5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. 6 We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin. 7 For one who has died has been set free from sin.


1 Corinthians 12:13

13 For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—Jews or Greeks, slaves4 or free—and all were made to drink of one Spirit.

Physical and Spiritual Natures

Quote: The Quakers are known for their concept of “practicing” Christianity, believing in “living” Christianity rather than having “doctrinal” Christianity1. This emphasis is complete, for the Quakers do not practice baptism, the Lord’s Supper, or any physical rite; instead, they believe in the “baptism of the Spirit” and having meetings where the communion is in the unity of the Spirit. Quaker theology is essentially the working of the Spirit, with little to be left for the physical nature: man comes to God by the working of the Spirit, and his only comprehension of God can be through the Spirit. Is this what the Scriptures teach?

It is certainly true that the Spirit is to work within us and that there are important spiritual natures to such things as baptism and the Lord’s Supper. Nevertheless, we do not see evidence that the physical aspects of these practices are to be omitted. Christianity was never meant to be a purely physical religion, but it also was never meant to be a religion without any physical action. We have positive commandments to be immersed in water for the remission of our sin and for the partaking of the Lord’s Supper (see Baptism and The Lord’s Supper for these commandments), and we see them being performed physically by Christ and His disciples. The Quakers were correct in condemning the attitudes of other denominations of the time, which treated these acts as physical rites with no spiritual value within them; the reaction of completely rejecting the physical nature of baptism and the Lord’s Supper, however, is just as unjustifiable.

We certainly will not reject the Spirit’s work in the conversion of man from sinner to Christian; however, we see that the agency of the Spirit is extremely similar to the agency of the Word of God. Both assist in convicting the sinner of his sin (John 16:8; Titus 1:9), sanctifying man (1 Corinthians 6:11; John 17:17), calling mankind out of sin (Revelation 22:17; 2 Thessalonians 2:14), and finally, in the need to be born again (John 3:5; 1 Peter 1:23). We therefore hear the words of Paul in Romans 10:17:

So belief cometh of hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.

- See more at: http://www.astudyofdenominations.com/denominations/quaker/#sthash.taYnAiFW.SgYASFe3.dpuf END QUOTE.

For myself, I have not taken communion for 15 years and can say that although there was some small degree of emotional response in doing so, I have grown much more spiritually in this time, thinking that I am feeding from Him daily, having been baptised by the Spirit and walking in the light, both as spiritual concepts and not physical ones.


Have a good day!

 2014/7/24 8:57
havok20x
Member



Joined: 2008/9/14
Posts: 785


 Re:

Quote:
Those who had come to a deeper understanding of what these symbols signified, and were cleansed from sin, were no longer required to continue in them, but for others, they could continue to encourage themselves for a future hope.

It is not wrong to interpret the sacraments in this physical symbolic way, but there should come a time when the symbols are fulfilled in our lives with the spiritual reality they came to signify, and where we can see the deeper meaning of them.

So I am not saying that brethren should not be continuing in the general understanding of them if they wish, but that it cannot be proven from history that it is absolutely vital to do so, and a short investigation of those who did not, and believed in the spiritual understanding of the elements, will show some of the most holy productive saints we have ever seen in the church.



This idea borders much on the edge of gnosticism. Especially the first paragraph. You are right to say that we should not just be participating in symbolic things that have no meaning to us nor any impact in our lives, but I do not think it is right to say that once we understand there meaning, we can opt-out.

I believe, and I think the scriptures show it as well, that both baptism and the Lord's supper are more than just symbols. Now I don't believe in baptismal regeneration nor Eucharistic regeneration. But just because those things don't save us does not mean we can divorce them from our lives or from the events that give them significance. It bothers me quite a bit to see that someone will make a profession of faith and then baptize them months or years later when they are REALLY ready to commit. It also bothers me that the Lord's Supper is treated like just a symbol or a reminder of what Jesus did for us. Even if that were true, I needed to be reminded way more often that 4 times a year. However, there is a very real work of God going on in our lives when we properly participate in communion. There is a very real work of God going on in church when a new convert is baptized.

Just because I understand perfectly (and I am not saying I do) what baptism and communion are about does not mean that I dont' have to do them anymore (not that baptism is continuous). If I understand what communion is about, then that ought to make me desire to do it more. If I understand why people are baptized, then that should make me want to see it happen as close to conversion as possible.

 2014/7/24 11:17Profile





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