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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Do Moses and Jesus Have Equal Authority Over the Believer?

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ZekeO
Member



Joined: 2004/7/4
Posts: 1014
Pietermaritzburg, South Africa

 Re:

I can never fully appreciate what Jesus my high priest is and has done if I never study the levitical priesthood.

I can never fully appreciate the Jesus the lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world unless I study what the sacrifices meant.

The OT is types and pictures of Christ, lets keep that in the forefront of our minds.

Friends, we are talking past each other here.

Everything in the OT, everything is interpreted through the lenses of Jesus Christ being the messiah. We don't look at the OT to find out how to live, we look at the OT to see who our messiah is. With this mindset we gain a small glimpse into Pauls statement: Christ in You the hope of Glory.


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Zeke Oosthuis

 2014/8/15 11:04Profile
Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2094
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

"So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, 17 which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ."-Colossians 2:16-17

Notice that no mention is made there of any moral laws, laws which are written on the heart of man. Paul doesn't say, "let no one judge you in not committing adultery, murder, stealing, etc."

Paul only mentions there laws from the Old Covenant that have to do with outward ceremonial rituals. He says clearly that those things are a shadow of things to come.

To assert that the moral law of God which was written on the heart of man was only a shadow is to misinterpret and misapply the Word of God. Nowhere do we see that taught in the New Testament. Again, to the contrary the moral law is reinforced as applicable to the believer and non-believer today as always. It is transcendent and eternal because it is a vital part of God's holiness. God does not change in terms of His moral perfection. He never has and never will change or lower His standard of goodness. He will judge humanity by that standard. If we are in Christ we are made perfect in Christ who perfectly kept God's law and took our punishment. Those who die outside of Christ will be condemned to eternity in hell for violating God's moral law since they refused to repent and trust in Christ as their Lord and Savior.


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Oracio

 2014/8/15 12:28Profile
havok20x
Member



Joined: 2008/9/14
Posts: 980
Pineville, LA

 Re:

What about the unfulfilled prophecies in the OT?

Did the new covenant drop those too? They didn't all get repeated in the NT.

 2014/8/15 12:30Profile









 Re:

Oracio,

The moral law and.I assume you mean the code of Sinai is not written on the hearts of men.

Consider Rom. 2:12,
For all who have sinned without the Law will perish without the law and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law.

And Rom. 2:14
For when Gentiles who do not have the law

Non Jews or Gentiles will perish. But it will not be because they are violating the code of Sinai.

If anything it will be because they are rejecting God in creation as Paul lays out in Romans 1 in the later part of that chapter.

But ultimately men will be rejected because they have rejected Jesus Christ, not the moral law.

Acts 17:31 says,
because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead.

Thus the center of redemptive history, God`s ultimate revelation is found in Jesus Christ. Not Moses.

I think John 3:36 best conveys what I am trying to articulate,

He who believes in the Son has eternal life, but He who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath if God abides on Him.

Thus ultimate judgement will be if one has received or rejected Jesus Christ.

Blaine


 2014/8/15 13:34









 Re:

Havok,

What prophesies are you referring to that have not been fulfilled?

Blaine

 2014/8/15 13:38









 Re:

Bump.

 2014/8/15 13:41
Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2094
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

Blaine, notice the very next verses in that Romans 2 passage you referenced:

"who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) 16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel."-Romans 2:15-16

What "work of the law" is written in the hearts and consciences of Gentiles who do not have the written law? Is it the types and shadows of Old Covenant outward ceremonies? Of course not, right?

God will not judge humanity only for rejecting Christ. Rejecting Christ as Lord and Savior will be part of the reason SOME will be judged. But what of those who have never heard of Christ and die in their sins? They will be judged for lying, committing adultery, murder, etc., again, because they have the moral law of God written on their hearts and are without excuse.

Quote:
If anything it will be because they are rejecting God in creation as Paul lays out in Romans 1 in the later part of that chapter.


Yes, rejecting God in creation is also a reason for the wrath of God being revealed from heaven, but in that passage Paul also gives a long list of sins that bring God's wrath upon humanity. And many other parts of the NT also give lists of sins that will bar people from heaven.

So rejecting the God of creation and sinning against His moral law are the first reasons for God's judgment. Those who have heard of Christ and have specifically rejected Him and His sacrifice will have to endure more of God's wrath in hell.


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Oracio

 2014/8/15 14:05Profile
havok20x
Member



Joined: 2008/9/14
Posts: 980
Pineville, LA

 Re:

Isaiah 2:4

Ezekiel 37 & 38

Daniel 9:24-27

Daniel 12

*****************

Those are a few that I found.

I'll shoot you straight:

My issue is that they are largely unfulfilled at this point and there are some details of their fulfillment in the NT that are either missing or not repeated. So if the entire OT has been abrogated, then that means there are details of future prophecies, not specifically repeated in the NT that went unfulfilled.

 2014/8/15 14:09Profile
Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2094
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

Quote:
The moral law and.I assume you mean the code of Sinai is not written on the hearts of men.


Blaine, I already posted that I am not specifically referring to the Ten Commandments, because the moral law is not only seen in that list but also in other parts of the Old and New Testaments. There are some moral laws and sins that are specifically mentioned in other parts of God's Word which are not specifically mentioned in the Ten Commandments.

Again, one of my main points in this thread is that some of the Old Testament teaching on moral purity or holiness is still applicable and binding on people today because God's moral law does not change. The New Testament makes this point crystal clear all throughout.

And another main concern is with a general denigration of the Old Testament as a whole. If it was not that important why did the apostles teach from it and carry over much of the teaching from it into the NT? God could have given us the NT without so many quotations on moral purity or holiness from the OT. The OT was highly treasured in all the early churches. Why such a low view of it now? It's unbiblical.


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Oracio

 2014/8/15 14:18Profile
havok20x
Member



Joined: 2008/9/14
Posts: 980
Pineville, LA

 Re:

Oracio,

Do you mind if I email you? I would like to get a better understand of "moral law" without bogging down this thread.

Thanks!

 2014/8/15 14:22Profile





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