Poster | Thread | Oracio Member
Joined: 2007/6/26 Posts: 2094 Whittier CA USA
| Re: | | TMK writes:
Quote:
Oracio-
Why do you think that Eph 2:8-9 is saying that faith is the gift from God and not salvation? I have always read those verses to mean that salvation is the gift (i.e. it is not earned), not faith.
I think we are treading on perilous ground if we start suggesting that God gifts some people with saving faith but not others.
Good point TMK. I guess it's just always seemed like the most natural reading of that verse to me. And maybe I've been influenced a lot by Calvinism throughout my walk, though I've been on both sides of the debate.
But think about it, it shouldn't be too surprising that some would read that verse like this, "By grace are you saved through faith, and that(faith),not of yourselves, it is a gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast."
Also, it could be argued that that passage is teaching that our whole salvation and the whole conversion process(the new birth/regeneration/salvation through faith) is effected by God's grace as a gift and is not something we can earn.
But I will have to search the scriptures more and meditate on that passage a bit more TMK because you do present a good challenge to my long-held understanding of that verse.
That said, I think we can also tread on dangerous ground if we give the impression that regeneration is a work of man. Scripture is clear that the Holy Ghost is the One that produces that awesome work in one's heart and life and God will not share that glory with any man.
These things can get a bit deep for us to fully comprehend this side of heaven. That's why I said earlier, I try not to worry too much about it these days. But I think it's good to discuss it and allow iron to sharpen iron as I've experienced on this thread. _________________ Oracio
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| 2014/7/2 23:12 | Profile |
| Re: | | I agree with TMK. The gift of a God is speaking of salvation...and salvation is a Person. As we search the scriptures we come to know the heart of God and see that God is rich in mercy and His supreme desire from before the foundation of the world was to GIVE us His only begotten Son. His riches abound to us through Christ, this great gift who will save us and grant us adoption in His household.
Jesus answered her, “If you knew the gift of God, and who it is that is saying to you, ‘Give me a drink,’ you would have asked him, and he would have given you living water.”
Once He is revealed to us, we must ask in faith to be saved.
Yet there are many who hear the Truth but do not believe and so in their unbelieving state, the god of this world blinds their eyes, "to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ".
But as many as received Him (the Gift), to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name. |
| 2014/7/3 0:37 | | brothagary Member
Joined: 2011/10/23 Posts: 2556
| Re: True Repentance | | edit seriously awakened this is the problem
you said ......God does not grant any "specific" act of repentance to only certain people or any such thing like this. Seriously I had never even heard of such a thing until I came to America. All my life everywhere I went, everyone I met had the same simple understanding of what repentance means....until now
you are elavaiting what everyone is saying rather then plain reading of scripture ,,,and you said youv been doin that all your life
if we take scripture at face value ,,,paull siad it plainly ,,PERHAPS GOD WILL GRANT THEM REPENTENCE ,,,speaking about the jews ,,,,,,,you need to rember evey thing god grants is a gift from him ,,,becasue it is a grace ,,man doesnt earn the right to be convicted by gods power nor is it owed to us not do we deserve this and to die to sin ,which in essence is what a matured repentence is ,,,paul uses the word perhaps god will grant ,,meaning perhaps he will perhaps he wont ,,,jesus said no man can come to me unless my father draws him ,,this is repentence ,,to change you mind due to gracefilled revalion of our sinfull nature ,and come to christ to be washed in the blood ,,,jesus said you cant do it with out my fathers spirit ,,,he said with out me you can do nothing ,,not a thing can we do to please god becasue the bible says the natural man cannot recieve the things of the spirit ,,,,and conviction of of sin by the spirit of god is the most importaint thing of the spirit
so in essence the bible teaches man cant produce conviction of the spirit needed for repentence nor can he produce the holy revalation of jesus and his mercy by with man is drawn and turns from sin to god ,,,so man needs god to grant repentence invoving spiritual conviction and supanatural revalation
nor can man in an unregenerate natual carnal state recieve these vital manifestation that are granted by the mercy of god ,,,he must be bornagaing or be in the process of the new birth to recieve these presious things ,as paul bluntly put it it is foolish ,to him
god goes even as far as giving us the desires of our heart the bible says so ,,,,,,he places in us the desire to to want god and to be dicusted at sin ,, the bible says we love him becase he first loved us ,,and you know what we hate sin ,,becasue of the one who is been put in our hearts who as the bible says loved righeousness ,,and hated lawlessness ,,,,we are only like jesus becasue of jesus ,,,,,the bibles goes as far as saying god even deals to each man the measure of faith paul wrote it ,,,so our faith comes from god ,,,,dont lissten to evey one ,,what does the bible say who realy cares how weve been brought up
hebrews says that we have the same SPIRIT OF FAITH as god him self ,,this is not an atrubute of fallen man ,,becasue he has the spirit of the prince and the power of the spirit the spirit that worketh in the sons of disobedence ,,,,that unholy prince has no faith in god ,,he trusted in him self and his own buauty ,,,and that is all of us before conversion ,,,god must intervein as the bible says and put a new heart in us with a new spirit and as he said i will cause you to walk in my statutes and you will be carfull to do them ,, he even said ,i will put my fear in you sao you will not depart from them
salvation is all about god from the beginning to the end ,,he is the alpa and the omega of evey part of our salvation he even hardens whom he wills and he as we already know give mercy to who he will
some will find fault and say ,,well then who can resist his will if it is like this ,,why has he made us like this ,,who can resists his will
but then who are you to repely back to god ,,will the thing formed say the the one who form it why have you made us this way ,,,,has not the potter power of his clay
paull made that clear in romans
that is the issue that men have with gods word ,,is that it is wrong for god to make us this way ,,,not being able to come to god on our own when we were slaves to sin
brother in your last paragraph ,,,,,you said some things wich are blankent statments that are obviously not true for everyone who believes in the sourventy of god
who has said to sinners they can go on there merry way in sin ,,no one here has said that so useing that in an argument againsts this here is totaly erelevent
agreed brother we should tell them to get down on there faces before god ,,but dont get up till god grants you true repentence ,,,other wise you may as well be a muslim or a jehovawitness down on there facese,,because when they get up thinking theve repented thev acheived nothing but a false repentence,,these can to nothing in there own power to come to god unless god draws him
i like what you wrote ......And when I am crying out to Him in repentance, the impact is very real on Gods own heart. He is moved with compassion for me as His own heart literally breaks over my sincere supplication to turn away from sin and turn to Him. And so He moves on me, His Spirit releasing forgiveness, liberty, joy and freedom and a profound thing happens...He changes me, my heart so to speak. The end result of this true repentance is that I have been changed and am no longer the same person as before.
but how can you think you that it is not god who breaks you and casues you to cry ,,,how can you think and this is your sincer suplication ,,,when the bibles says god pours out the spirit of prayer and suplication ,,how can you take credit and boast about this as your doing,, when the bible says it is god who works in you who both to wills and to do for his good pleasure ,, im amased that one would love to take the glory of gods work in us ,,,he who began a good work in you will finish it ,the bible says ,,,,give the glory to god for all of it ,,we can only continue repenting and believeing in god ,,becasue he is comforming us into the image of his son ,,,gods doing it all ,,,,
i cant help shake my head in a type of anger and trembel with my lip in a brokeness ,,when i read the topic that was stared ,,,that said its not all about jesus ,,,i cant beleieve a christian would say its not all about jesus
the bible says all things are created by him and for him ,,and he upholds all things by the word of his power
if its not all about jesus ,,then mama mea ..whats it all about
blessings to ya |
| 2014/7/3 1:28 | Profile |
| Re: | | brother Gary, thank you so much for your long dissection of my post, I am honored as I respect you more than most on this forum:) I just typed a super, super long post that would have frazzled your brain and blown you out of your socks and then I hit control something and boom it was gone:(
Oh well, perhaps it was never meant to be sent. Anyway here is my one sentence summary.....
....John Calvin is not right about everything:) |
| 2014/7/3 4:00 | | brothagary Member
Joined: 2011/10/23 Posts: 2556
| Re: | | lol brother i hate when that happens ,its happend to me many times ,and due to my extreemly poor typing skills i felt like i lost hours
iv never read anything writtern my calvin and i dont intend to ,,but i have hered that his instatutes of the christians religeon is verry edafieing ,,,i leave that to paull washer
blessings to brother |
| 2014/7/3 4:50 | Profile | TMK Member
Joined: 2012/2/8 Posts: 6650 NC, USA
| Re: | | We are on the fringe of turning this into a Calvinism debate and I surely want to avoid that and I hope that everyone else does too, whichever side of the fence you are on.
I will just say this one thing-- looking at scripture as a whole and trying to keep it as simple as possible, it seems clear that the responsibility is on man to repent and respond to God. Man is held accountable for not repenting. He is sent to hell if he fails to repent long enough.
No I certainly believe we are saved by grace and that salvation is a gift and we don't earn it. But in my view repenting is not earning. Repenting is responding to the call of God and changing one's mind about who he is going to follow henceforward.. Whether we repent or not has everything to do with us. God calls, we repent, or not. God is not hand-picking who repents. If he is somehow putting repentance in me or putting in me the desire to repent, but not someone else, then I am not really repenting. God is, in a manner of speaking, repenting for me.
No, man is responsible for repenting. That seems so clear throughout scripture. Repenting is not a work that earns salvation. Nor is faith a work. Handing out Watchtower booklets door to door is a work. Of course a person who has been saved can look back and see how God was working in his life to bring him to that point, but that is different than saying actually put repentance in a person. _________________ Todd
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| 2014/7/3 6:23 | Profile | brothagary Member
Joined: 2011/10/23 Posts: 2556
| Re: | | if only god and his work of salvation on the soul of his creatours were as simlpe as that but we are dealing with an unfathanble god and his word is clear quote ,that pehaps god will grant repentence
stop trying to put gods and his work in a finite minacule human box thast we can get easly get our puni litle brain aroung and and explain in one pathetic paragraph ,,lol that does god not honer ,,,man just except the word of god at face value ,,you dont need to over simplafigh ,,and fit it in some basic thological fram work that makes us feel better ,,its ment to hard to under stand and except ,,the holy spirit wouldn have wrote the letter to the romons if it was ment to be that easy
oh man i said iv never even read this calvin gye who that ,,please dont tell who he is,,iv hered of him
what about concidering your self ,brother and all the debats you spark up ,,;like eturnal hell,,,,,im just saying ,,,it doesnt bother me to talk about hell ,,,,but hey be consistent at least
im not aloud on either side of the fence none of those camps excpet me so im left to stradle the bloody fence itself
brother just take the scriopure is is writtern ,,,man is responsable to repent ,,but god grants repentence
ya not ment to be able to swalow that in one bite with our brain ,,,,,just like the cross of christ ,,it was god who sent his son to die for us the bible says i will strik the sheperd and the sheep will be scatterd ,,,god did it buth the bible say in acts to the jews by wikked hands you have crusafied and slayed him
no no god did it i telll
no no the jews and romons did it the bible says
the bible is utterly packed bipolar truths ,,we dont need to minamise either one .,,i do apolagise if it seems in this descusion im minamise what im doing to repent and having faith ,,,but it realy isnt as much as what god is doing ,,,im repenting and believing ,,but i dont need to glosse over the part the bable says hes doing ,,,if you thing im lieing ,,just cheak the bible for the quotes i quoted if you cant find the verses im sure i can or sombody can
man god worth it ,,he worth giving all the glory and credit
how can you say he doesnt put repentence in a person ,,,,repentence is born of god
the simple basic definition ,in it eralists stages is it means a change of mind ,,,renpentenc from sin ,,we change our mind about sin ,,god does that when he convicts and shows us that we are a sinner,,,you haven changed you mind till you see that your a sinner ,,god makes that revalation real ,even finney says in that sermon and he hated calvinism ,,and we repent wowards god ,the bible says through paul ,,,,change your mind about god ,god does that with a revalation aboiut the holyness of his jesus and is majesty we seee god becasue ge gives us sight our mind changes ,,,,,we turn from sin and forsake sin ,,is the next step ,,,well bravo to the lamb of god ,,jesus said if the son sets you free you will be free indeed ,,,thats how he turn from sin ,,,he sets us free from sin ,,,,,,,,sure of course we submit to this calling and respond and embrace this experence ,,,but god has so effected our hearts and minds by his perfect revalations that that he plays a great rool in that as well ,,,he even says he will case us to walk in his ways ,,and he will put the fear of god in us ,,it says that in ezekil ,,,then even david says by the faer of the lord men depart from iniquity ,,,,far out daive is say it is because god puts his fear in you through that gift that we depart from sin and repent
for christ sake read the book its all there so glorious a revalation of gods work in his saints
we are ment to be able to feed from these truths for the rest of our lives and be amasade and astounded at gods grace in this holy matter ,,,,we dont want to make this simple as posable
im off to bed ,,have a good day brother ..blessings |
| 2014/7/3 7:22 | Profile | TMK Member
Joined: 2012/2/8 Posts: 6650 NC, USA
| Re: | | Gary wrote:
"what about concidering your self ,brother and all the debats you spark up ,,;like eturnal hell,,,,,im just saying ,,,it doesnt bother me to talk about hell ,,,,but hey be consistent at least "
Whoa there Gary I just expressed that there were alternative viewpoints. Everyone else was debating with that.
What I mean about debating Calvinism is that it never goes anywhere and the same points are discussed over and over. They are unfruitful.
This discussion hasn't got there quite yet but might be getting close.
It boils down to mind sets and philosophy. Both camps are Christians but with different paradigms. For example I will never ever believe that God predestines some persons to heaven and by default others to hell. I could debate it for years and my mind would never be changed. Other people have no problem with this at all and they would never be persuaded otherwise. So why debate it?
I don't like God's character to be misrepresented and I think that is the driving force behind a lot of the debate. One side thinks that Calvinism misrepresents His character and the other does not. Perhaps both are right. _________________ Todd
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| 2014/7/3 8:00 | Profile | havok20x Member
Joined: 2008/9/14 Posts: 980 Pineville, LA
| Re: | | golly brothagary, I love you. I hope I have the great privilege of meeting you one day this side of eternity!
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TMK, you said:
Quote:
If he is somehow putting repentance in me or putting in me the desire to repent, but not someone else, then I am not really repenting.
As Gary has already pointed out, the scripture says both. It is man's responsibility to respond to the Gospel. No doubt. It is also entirely a work of God. You are not talking to hyper-calvinists here. I've hardly even read anything by Calvin!
I want to employ a bit of logic here, TMK.
If I say that if God allows me to breathe but does not allow others to do so, then I am not really alive then something is terribly wrong with the way I think...lol.
We ascribe all of these wonderful things to God, but the truth is that He is sovereign over all of creation.
Look at what it says in Isaiah 59:15 to the end of the chapter
Quote:
So truth fails, And he who departs from evil makes himself a prey. Then the Lord saw it, and it displeased Him That there was no justice.
He saw that there was no man, And wondered that there was no intercessor; Therefore His own arm brought salvation for Him; And His own righteousness, it sustained Him. For He put on righteousness as a breastplate, And a helmet of salvation on His head; He put on the garments of vengeance for clothing, And was clad with zeal as a cloak. According to their deeds, accordingly He will repay, Fury to His adversaries, Recompense to His enemies; The coastlands He will fully repay. So shall they fear The name of the Lord from the west, And His glory from the rising of the sun; When the enemy comes in like a flood, The Spirit of the Lord will lift up a standard against him.
“The Redeemer will come to Zion, And to those who turn from transgression in Jacob,” Says the Lord.
“As for Me,” says the Lord, “this is My covenant with them: My Spirit who is upon you, and My words which I have put in your mouth, shall not depart from your mouth, nor from the mouth of your descendants, nor from the mouth of your descendants’ descendants,” says the Lord, “from this time and forevermore.”
and look at Isaiah 63, the whole chapter
Quote:
Who is this who comes from Edom, With dyed garments from Bozrah, This One who is glorious in His apparel, Traveling in the greatness of His strength?—
“I who speak in righteousness, mighty to save.”
Why is Your apparel red, And Your garments like one who treads in the winepress?
“I have trodden the winepress alone, And from the peoples no one was with Me. For I have trodden them in My anger, And trampled them in My fury; Their blood is sprinkled upon My garments, And I have stained all My robes. For the day of vengeance is in My heart, And the year of My redeemed has come. I looked, but there was no one to help, And I wondered That there was no one to uphold; Therefore My own arm brought salvation for Me; And My own fury, it sustained Me. I have trodden down the peoples in My anger, Made them drunk in My fury, And brought down their strength to the earth.”
I will mention the lovingkindnesses of the Lord And the praises of the Lord, According to all that the Lord has bestowed on us, And the great goodness toward the house of Israel, Which He has bestowed on them according to His mercies, According to the multitude of His lovingkindnesses. For He said, “Surely they are My people, Children who will not lie.” So He became their Savior. In all their affliction He was afflicted, And the Angel of His Presence saved them; In His love and in His pity He redeemed them; And He bore them and carried them All the days of old. But they rebelled and grieved His Holy Spirit; So He turned Himself against them as an enemy, And He fought against them.
Then he remembered the days of old, Moses and his people, saying: “Where is He who brought them up out of the sea With the shepherd of His flock? Where is He who put His Holy Spirit within them, Who led them by the right hand of Moses, With His glorious arm, Dividing the water before them To make for Himself an everlasting name, Who led them through the deep, As a horse in the wilderness, That they might not stumble?”
As a beast goes down into the valley, And the Spirit of the Lord causes him to rest, So You lead Your people, To make Yourself a glorious name.
Look down from heaven, And see from Your habitation, holy and glorious. Where are Your zeal and Your strength, The yearning of Your heart and Your mercies toward me? Are they restrained? Doubtless You are our Father, Though Abraham was ignorant of us, And Israel does not acknowledge us. You, O Lord, are our Father; Our Redeemer from Everlasting is Your name. O Lord, why have You made us stray from Your ways, And hardened our heart from Your fear? Return for Your servants’ sake, The tribes of Your inheritance. Your holy people have possessed it but a little while; Our adversaries have trodden down Your sanctuary. We have become like those of old, over whom You never ruled, Those who were never called by Your name.
Clearly God is the one in control of all of this and men must respond. It is both. |
| 2014/7/3 10:13 | Profile |
| Re: | | You don't have to be a hyper-Calvinist or even have read anything of Calvin to agree with him or those who agree with him, and his teachings are very popular these days and on the rise.
The main problem with those in this camp and those on the fence is that most erroneously believe man does not have a free will, that he is a robot and God will not allow man to choose Him or reject Him. They say that God is totally sovereign and therefore in their minds and in their human definitions and human understanding it does not compute that God would ever allow man to chose. This all stems from the erroneous teaching of total depravity. That a sinner no longer has the ability to respond to God. It is flawed and once a person buys into this it taints absolutely everything, including the subject at hand - repentance.
Brotha Gary you may say you have never read Calvin so let me share that if you honestly believe that man is incapable of responding to Gods call to awaken, repent etc...incapable of responding to the Word of God, incapable of responding to the Holy Spirit then you would probably fit in real well with the Calvinist camp more than you think. And if you believe that God hand picks some for salvation and some for damnation because He can...because He is God...because He "hated" Esau and thus He hates a whole lot of others...then you have not only slid off your fence but you are way over on the far side of the Calvinist camp:) |
| 2014/7/3 12:04 | |
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