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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : How Can I Be Sure of My Salvation? by John MacArthur

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murrcolr
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Joined: 2007/4/25
Posts: 1839
Scotland, UK

 Re:

Quote: "If you confess with your mouth and belive with your heart, you will be saved." Is that a "work?"

Take a close look at what you said:

Quote: Jesus blood does not save me unless my words of faith and repentance demonstrate to God that He has my sincerity.

Jesus blood DOES NOT SAVE me unless my words of faith AND REPENTANCE..

So what is this repentance you prescribe prior to salvation?


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Colin Murray

 2014/6/28 14:14Profile
Sidewalk
Member



Joined: 2011/11/11
Posts: 719
San Diego

 Re: Because I do not believe in Universalist Doctrine

To put it bluntly, the death of Jesus on the cross does not obligate God to save anyone. Quickly I add that Jesus' death on the cross enables God to save everybody, in that He is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

Growing up under rather severe Calvinist teaching I came to believe that men were so hopelessly lost that they were unable to even think they could ask God for salvation. This was the famous "Total Depravity" that explained why condemned men had no claim to God.

Thus salvation was completely controlled by an initiation from God, who being under no obligation to save anyone could by His own will and purposes "elect" to save some. His choice, the rest none of my business.

I have since come to thoroughly reject this notion, and I see it as a complete misrepresentation of both the character and purposes of God. Under Calvin's view of atonement, Christ was tortured and crucified in an exact blow for blow accounting of all the sins of the elect. All the believer's sins were laid on Him and literally paid in that way. It is known as the doctrine of retributive justice.

But it doesn't work for me, especially the part about the character of God in all of it. Even though I was an early on believer as a teen ager, and relished arguing the truth of Calvinism, I really disliked God, had no love for Jesus, and had no restraint on the sin that wanted to carry me off. I thought, what the hell, God already knows I'm going to sin and besides- Pastor Smith said it was all paid for in Christ anyway.

How simply and logically a teenager can construct enough theology to cover himself and proceed with his sundry passions!

Too detailed to lay it all out here, but I no longer believe with Calvin. The atonement does not obligate God to save anyone, it enables Him to. No one sins because God has pre-ordained it, we sin because we follow our lusts in defiance of our consciences. We arrange for our own condemnation, he arranges a way to escape that same condemnation. He offers salvation- but does not force us to take it!

Jesus death on the cross is what is known as Public Justice if you need a doctrinal name. It is the death owed by one man for his sins, Jesus death is my death. Thus it can be the death of any man, every man, or to follow out the logic, if no man ever repented and received the gift of that sacrifice it is still valid and would be enshrined eternally as God's provision for sinful men! Whew! He is a good, a thorough, and a reasonable loving God!

Repentance I suppose might appear to some as a "work." I don't think so. Repentance is a turning away from the deeds, the attitudes, the habits, the affections that we come to call our lifestyle, and a coming to agree with God that these things filling our lives are egregious crimes against the One who created and loved us. A repentant man recognizes that he has no claim to the things of God, no worthiness to enter the kingdom, no works with which to impress a Holy God.

At the same time, repentance might be considered an enormous work! Severing unholy relationships, confessing wrongs to injured friends and family, paying down debts to creditors, confessing hateful attitudes toward enemies, asking forgiveness of people who have hurt you back- not easy stuff!

But none of it is done to earn God's favor! It is not that kind of "works."

Rather it is the presentation of evidence to the universe that includes God, your neighbor, and even yourself, that your faith is real.

There is no salvation without repentance as far as I can see from what the bible gives us, and there is always that little note,

"God is not mocked. Whatsoever a man soweth, the same shall he reap."

I hope that is helpful, and if I have spoken amiss I covet any correction.

Biker Tom


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Tom Cameron

 2014/6/28 18:07Profile
murrcolr
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Joined: 2007/4/25
Posts: 1839
Scotland, UK

 Re:

So what is this repentance you prescribe prior to salvation?

Quote: Repentance is a turning away from the deeds, the attitudes, the habits, the affections that we come to call our lifestyle.

----

Quote: Jesus blood does not save me unless my words of faith and repentance demonstrate to God that He has my sincerity.

So what your saying is; I must confess with my mouth with words of faith and turn away from deeds, attitudes, habits, and affections then Jesus blood will save me?

Shouldn't the turning away from deeds, attitudes, habits, and affections be post-conversion rather that pre-conversion...

Must a smoker stop smoking to be converted, what about the drug addict has he to stop taking drugs to be converted, the drunkard must he stop consuming alcohol to be converted.


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Colin Murray

 2014/6/28 20:22Profile
Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2094
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

murrcolr writes:

Quote:
Shouldn't the turning away from deeds, attitudes, habits, and affections be post-conversion rather that pre-conversion...


Based on my understanding of the Word I'd say it is at or during the new birth experience that this radical turning away from sin and turning to Christ by faith takes place. So it is neither pre nor post conversion when it comes true conversion. As I've stated before, they are like two sides of the same coin. The Bible says faith and repentance are both necessary in order for it to be a true conversion.


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Oracio

 2014/6/28 20:45Profile
Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2094
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

I want to further clarify by saying repentance does continue after conversion. But I was mainly referring to the initial repentance that accompanies saving faith during the new birth experience.


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Oracio

 2014/6/28 20:48Profile
Sidewalk
Member



Joined: 2011/11/11
Posts: 719
San Diego

 Re: In pursuit of salvation assurance

Jesus asked a question, regarding a father who asked his two sons to go work in the vineyard. One readily said he would go but didn't, the other was reluctant but did go and work. Which one, asks Jesus, did the will of the father? It was almost a rhetorical question, it was obvious that the one who actually did as he was requested was the one who pleased his father.

In a similar vein, in Matthew 3 John the Baptist strongly rebukes (the great "brood of vipers" analogy) the scribes and pharisees who were coming to be baptized. "Bring fruits of repentance," He scolds. He wants to see deeds, not just the claim that they are descendents of Abraham.

But look at this even deeper. Salvation is future, a reality that is the substance of our hope, shrouded in warnings of apostasy, being sucked back into sin, the uncertainty of standing up to persecution, of being an "overcomer." No one living today has in his grasp the salvation of which we speak. Even Paul, "Not that I have attained, but I pummel my body..."

"Are you saved, brother?" We might ask.
"Sure am, too blessed to be depressed, on my way to glory!"

Easy words, glibly spoken under no pressure. We have all heard them.

But these are people still walking out, working out their salvation with fear and trembling. The vote is not yet counted, and we would be foolish to judge. We are all still in process.

So while the works do not save a man, true repentance with elements such as I have written set him on a path of genuine faith bound for a salvation "waiting to be revealed in the last time," as Peter writes.

Am I missing something? Do you know a way to reach salvation without repentance?


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Tom Cameron

 2014/6/28 21:05Profile
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Joined: 2011/11/11
Posts: 719
San Diego

 Re: Repentance

______________________
I want to further clarify by saying repentance does continue after conversion. But I was mainly referring to the initial repentance that accompanies saving faith during the new birth experience.
______________________

An excellent point Oracio!

Repentance is to me the great dividing line between those who have become Christian so that they can go to heaven when they die, and those who bow before God to do His will at any cost.

Repentance should be a character quality, a pillar of the great virtue of humility, ready to be called upon instantly when one is caught by the Holy Spirit in some compromise. A constantly repentant heart is eager to keep the books clear, to prevent that root of bitterness a chance to burrow and spread poison.


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Tom Cameron

 2014/6/28 21:18Profile
brothagary
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Joined: 2011/10/23
Posts: 2556


 Re:

i think muurcol might be saying the flesh pre conversion cant turn from sin ,,it is flesh and sin is what it does all it does,,but once conversion comes and a new heart is givern and the new man is born ,,then he can turn from sin in the contex of repentence .,,,,,before that all a man can do is be convicted of sin and be guilty ,,,he can change is mind about sin but thats it he cant please god in the fleash and turn fromm sin ,,he can try ,but the carnal man can recive the things of the spirit nor perform the things of the spirit like baring the fruit of righeousness


call it what ever theolighy you want but that is cleary manys perceived experence is ,,and paul and jesus teaches that cleary as well



i think one of the main reasons why we might disagree about somting like this ,,is our definition of repentence is not the same

 2014/6/29 9:40Profile
brothagary
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Joined: 2011/10/23
Posts: 2556


 Re:

merriam webster /dictionary

: to feel or show that you are sorry for something bad or wrong that you did and that you want to do what is right













EasyBib






Full Definition of REPENT

intransitive verb


1

: to turn from sin and dedicate oneself to the amendment of one's life


2

a : to feel regret or contrition

b : to change one's mind
transitive verb


1

: to cause to feel regret or contrition


2

: to feel sorrow, regret, or contrition for

— re·pent·er noun


See repent defined for English-language learners »


See repent defined for kids »


Examples of REPENT

The preacher told us that we would be forgiven for our sins if we repented.
criminals who have repented for their crimes
The preacher told us that we would be forgiven if we repented our sins.


Origin of REPENT

Middle English, from Anglo-French repentir, from Medieval Latin repoenitēre, from Latin re- + Late Latin poenitēre to feel regret, alteration of Latin paenitēre — more at penitent
First Known Use: 14th century

 2014/6/29 9:43Profile
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4821
Savannah TN

 Re:

Religion based on man seeks to define what one must do to be saved. Back in the 15th century the central question in Europe was "how can I know that I am saved from hell? " We all know that the Catholic church had defined a set of rules, that if one did them they might surely know that they are saved. It was no different for the Jews that Jesus ministered to 2000 plus years ago. And it is today as it was in the 15th century. The story has different actors, yet the "pattern" is the same.

Today, men will try to teach others that if they do this and that, they who do these things can know that they are saved. But Scripture does not teach this about the ways of God. As Sidewalk has stated, Scripture teaches that it is the witness of the Holy Spirit in ones life that leads to salvation. And Scripture teaches that God's work in one individual is different from the work He does in another individual. He alone gets to decide who He will adopt.

This precept is illustrated in the parable found in Matthew 20...of which the last few words are thus...

Mat 20:12
“saying, ‘These last men have worked only one hour, and you made them equal to us who have borne the burden and the heat of the day.’

Mat 20:13
“But he answered one of them and said, ‘Friend, I am doing you no wrong. Did you not agree with me for a denarius?

Mat 20:14
‘Take what is yours and go your way. I wish to give to this last man the same as to you.

Mat 20:15
‘Is it not lawful for me to do what I wish with my own things? Or is your eye evil because I am good?’

Mat 20:16
“So the last will be first, and the first last. For many are called, but few chosen.”fn


The very first example of salvation of grace through faith is established in the testimony of Cain and Abel. God was not yet satisfied with Cain's response to God's calling or work in his life, and we know that God through the Holy Spirit continued to call Cain, but in the end according to Scripture, Cain rejected God and was not adopted by God. Likewise we have the testimony of Abraham. We are given a glimpse of the work God did in Abram before God preformed the Covenant with him. Likewise we know the testimony of Jacob and the struggle before God gave him the new name Israel. And likewise, we are given the testimony of the criminal that hung on the cross next to Jesus...and in that moment God adopted him. His time of calling and being chosen as different as all the others.

So man has no where to hide, no where to find justification for what he has done outside of the work of the Holy Spirit. Let Him be true and every man be a liar.

As Sidewalk testified hearing His voice is life changing.


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Jeff Marshalek

 2014/6/29 11:13Profile





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