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Sree
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Joined: 2011/8/20
Posts: 1714


 Re:

Quote:

A woman displays this divine relationship and represents God’s government to the world; her willing subjection to wearing a covering is likened to Christ’s willing subjection to the Father.

The head covering then becomes a symbol for all to see, recognized and understood by the angels in heaven and the believers here on earth. What a privilege."



Amen, why should a women think about first of all missing this privilege? Paul similarly compares marriage to Christ and Church relationship, why should someone think of spoiling this privilege by not honoring the marriage? People will readily recognize the second thing (dishonoring marriage) as sin but partial with first. Is it not a double standard?


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Sreeram

 2014/6/25 4:13Profile
Sree
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Joined: 2011/8/20
Posts: 1714


 Re:

Many men here think it is ok for a women not to cover her heard in Church and there by ignore the command. They try to come up with different loop holes so that they may not burden women in Church, like to add up cultural background etc.

But while thinking about not burdening others why do these men not give heed to what Jesus said in Matthew 5:19 in which Jesus said -"For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished. Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven". Why should a man or a preacher try to put his own interpretation and there by take all effort to become least in God's kingdom?

Jesus did not think about not burdening others when he gave sermon on the mount. He raised the standard of Law even higher by saying 'if you lust with your eyes you have already committed adultery'. If these men were present on that time they would have called Jesus a hard task master who is adding additional burden to men by placing these extra commands. But Jesus knew what he was going to do, he will give greater grace for men to keep these commands. If our trust is on grace then none of the commands will ever be a burden to either men or women.

I am not saying men should force this view on women who do not cover their head, then they truly put a burden and become a stumbling block. Instead present the truth as it is, instead of finding loopholes.

There is nothing wrong in obeying a command. There is nothing wrong in a women looking different by covering her head out of obedience in Church when others do not. My wife who was raised with truth about Head covering. When she met with few sisters in US for prayer meet, felt odd that she alone was covering her head. I told her not to feel odd but stand for the truth that God has given her the privilege to hear from childhood. She obeyed God's command even though she was the only women there that too youngest of them all. The sister who organizes the prayer meet, asked my wife about her belief in head covering. When my wife presented the truth in love, the sister started covering her head as well. She was at least 20 years older than my wife who was in her 20s at that time. Irrespective of age one can always spread God's fragrance.
Dare to be different for Christ.


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Sreeram

 2014/6/25 4:34Profile
TMK
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Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5379
NC, USA

 Re:

One more thing I wanted to clarify about my poking fun at this topic. I thought it was obvious but I guess it was not.

I am poking fun at the DEBATE over this topic that had been discussed ad nausea for many years without any clear resolution. The great majority of Christian women in the US at least don't cover their head. Doesn't mean they are right; doesn't mean they are wrong.

I AM NOT poking fun at persons who choose one way or the other. I honestly could care less personally, although when I see a woman in church wearing a hat (and this is usually at our daughter's church in Greenville SC that is about 50% African American) I do kind of like it.

But I do get a little irritated at those who continue to insist that they are right about one side of this issue and everyone else is wrong. How is this possible when very well respected men of God and Bible teachers fall on both sides of the issue? THAT is why the debate is ridiculous, No debate is necessary. Let each woman purpose in her own heart and mind what to do according to her prayerful study of the scriptures and leave it alone.


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Todd

 2014/6/25 6:18Profile
MaryJane
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Joined: 2006/7/31
Posts: 3057


 Re:

by Sree on 2014/6/25 1:34:47

There is nothing wrong in obeying a command. There is nothing wrong in a women looking different by covering her head out of obedience in Church when others do not.

____________________

You have mentioned "in Church" in some of your posts? I was wondering then do you believe this is a commend to follow while women are in church and praying or all the time? I do know some sisters who cover their heads when in prayer but do not wear the cloth cover at all times. I know of some who wear the cloth cover at all times, even when the lay down to sleep at night.

It is interesting to me,as I have had read many teaches on this topic. Today most women who cover do wear a small piece of cloth over the top of their head but some teaching I have read speak to the woman's head being veiled which implies a complete covering of the entire head and not just the top of the head? I wonder what your thoughts on this are?

Thank you again for sharing these things the LORD has placed on your heart.

God Bless
maryjane

 2014/6/25 9:47Profile
sermonindex
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 Re:

Quote:
I am poking fun at the DEBATE over this topic that had been discussed ad nausea for many years without any clear resolution. The great majority of Christian women in the US at least don't cover their head. Doesn't mean they are right; doesn't mean they are wrong.



Dear brother,

My post earlier clearly stated that there WAS NO debate until your comments and others that were posted in a very negative fashion. The thread started with a sincere question from a sister and in no way was currying for a debate. Again if we take away the strongly negative reactions there are some things to consider here in this thread.

We all love Holy Scripture and must reckon with all of it in our walks with the Lord.

Again for those who have not consider reading this short booklet by K.P. Yohannan on the subject, it is the most balanced and loving approach to the topic I have ever read:

(Pdf Book) Head Coverings by K.P. Yohannan
http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/visit.php?lid=25173


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SI Moderator - Greg Gordon

 2014/6/25 9:57Profile
ginnyrose
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Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7470
Mississippi

 Re: is head covering literal or spiritual

Trueblue,

In answer to your question, I believe that based on the WORD it is talking about a literal veil, not her husband.

It is true, that if a woman is married her husband is to work as her head, BUT he never ever supplants God's authority. We have no Scripture teaching us that this is so. God always holds the woman accountable for her decisions - she cannot ever use her husband as an excuse to disobey the headship/commands of Jesus Christ or the WORD.

Take for example the story of Ananias and Sapphira. Ananias lied to the apostles about the sale of their property...he lied and was killed by the LORD. Sapphira came in later and Peter asked her the same question. She repeated what her husband said and the LORD killed her as well. It is important to take lessons from this story because it has a lot to teach us.

Lying is sin.

Peter was giving Sapphira the opportunity to save herself from certain death but she chose to repeat her husbands wish which was a lie.

We also noticed they had agreed to do this beforehand, yet Sapphira was given the option to withdraw from this agreement by Peter, but she did not. God held her accountable. Wives cannot hide behind their husband's rebellion and expect God to honor their decisions. (If this were so consider the the opposite - it could mean a woman cannot come to the LORD unless her husband does first. The implications of holding to this position are staggering.)

We are called to submit to authorities who are over us but NOT at the expense of disobedience to the clear command of the WORD.

My understanding of the WORD - this is an issue I have wrestled with a long time and it is this incident in Acts 5 that taught me about the limited authority of a husband over the wife.

Hope this will not confuse you more...

ginnyrose


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Sandra Miller

 2014/6/25 12:35Profile









 Re:

Obviously this topic has been discussed many times on this forum and every time the subject is raised, it garners a lot of replies.

I believe their are, broadly speaking, three categories of Christian women in regard to this matter.

1. Those who cover their heads all the time.
2. Those who only cover their heads when gathered with the Body.
3 Those who do not cover their heads at all.

I believe when you mix up this group then great confusion follows. Some have appealed to tradition, going back 1900 years in support for head covering but what head covering, what group? 1,2 or 3? If you want to appeal to the last 1900 years, then it must be acknowledged that those of group 2 would be most justified by this appeal, not group 1.

What does Scripture say, because appealing to tradition can be fraught with danger, just speak to any Catholic about that, who equate tradition with Scripture. Here is the key portion of the Scripture..........

Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonoureth his head. But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven. For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered. For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.
(1Co 11:4-7)

The context is clearly in regard to when a woman or man prays or prophesies. Just as men are not expected to keep their heads uncovered all the time, they can clearly wear hats and not be sinning, then so woman can clearly not cover her head at all times and not be sinning. So the issue becomes when one one is " praying or prophesying." It is clearly a public issue, when one is gathered together with the Body to pray and to prophesy and to move in whatever gift, tongues, interpretation of tongues, words of knowledge and so on. Men should not have their heads covered in the gathering and woman should have their heads covered in the gathering.

The irony I have found, and this is just my personal experience, which is not limited but quite broad, is that those who practice head coverings all the time, Mennonites or conservative families and so on, do not have women praying or prophesying publicly so the matter is not about obedience to Scripture, rather it is compliance with their own tradition and culture. It is a bondage of legalism to many and tends to be found amongst groups who have or have had problems with legalism.

So, my opinion is that when the Body is gathered then a women should have her head covered in the event the Holy Spirit calls her to pray of prophesy and a man should have his head uncovered. To extend this practice outside of the gathering for women to always be covered or men to never be covered is not a Biblical stance but a tradition in certain groups which does not eve extend to the men since they can clearly wear hats and always have done..........bro Frank

 2014/6/25 12:55
MaryJane
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Joined: 2006/7/31
Posts: 3057


 Re:

by appolus on 2014/6/25 9:55:54

Obviously this topic has been discussed many times on this forum and every time the subject is raised, it garners a lot of replies.

I believe their are, broadly speaking, three categories of Christian women in regard to this matter.

1. Those who cover their heads all the time.
2. Those who only cover their heads when gathered with the Body.
3 Those who do not cover their heads at all.

_______________________

Thank you Frank for summing this up so well. I appreciate those who have shared what the LORD is showing them on this topic.

As for me I will continue to follow the LORD JESUS in this matter as HE has lead me to. I pray often and want to remain open and soft before HIM to know HIS heart in all things. This is just one area that concerns sister in the LORD that I think many new christian women struggle with. There are others as well and at times with so many differing opinions it can be difficult to wade through it all. I have come to see if we truly seek KING JESUS and desire to know HIS heart HE will lead us according to HIS will. As in all things GOD looks at the heart of the matter and as long as we remain open to HIM and HIS authority, daily submitted unto HIM then its all good :)


God bless
maryjane

God Bless
maryjane

 2014/6/25 13:15Profile
havok20x
Member



Joined: 2008/9/14
Posts: 786


 Re:

Since this discussion is very civilized, I feel I can join and add to it.

Remember, this issue doesn't only affect women:

I am a man who has no wife or children. If the Lord is willing, and someday I become married and perhaps blesses me with sons and daughters, then I will teach this to them. If the Lord chooses to make me a teacher, I will also teach this.

Because of these discussions and from reading the Scriptures, I have begun to take my hat off (I ALWAYS have either a ballcap or a cowboy hat on) whenever I pray--not because I am more righteous than others, but because of what it does represents and because of who commanded it.

I used to take my hat off when I prayed in public, because that was just southern tradition, but at home or in my truck, I left it on. But now my motives are totally different--the glory of God, and regardless of whether I am in public or not, I will try to do whatever I can (I am not perfect) to honor the Lord, even if it is as simple as taking off my hat.

Am I better than you because of that? God forbid that I should glory in anything except the cross of Jesus Christ!

***************************

The problem, I think, without most is that the motives or reasoning behind it is taught incorrectly. Also, I think when we have to look outside the Scriptures to pull a different meaning than what it says alone, then I think we've ventured into dangerous territory.

 2014/6/25 13:28Profile
sermonindex
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Posts: 37183
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 Re:

Frank,

Thank you brother for your sound reasoning. I agree with you that Scripture does not command sisters to wear the covering at "all times" and this is probably more rooted in mennonite tradition. I do not think it is wrong for a sister to wear some sort of covering for modesty if they feel it is part of their expressing modesty in the way they dress. So all sisters that wear a headcovering all that time are not doing so out of a rule of legalism.

brother KP in his short booklet agrees with your thinking on what is the Biblical time to wear a covering and that is primarily in the meeting of saints.

When to Wear a Head Covering
Paul specifies that women cover their
heads when they pray. The admonition here
is for a woman to cover her head whenever she
prays. This is what my mother always did.
Now Paul shared this teaching within
the context of speaking about spiritual gatherings—
a time when believers “come together”
for worship, prayer, exhortation, teaching and
the like.12
We know that prayer is not always vocal; it
can be nonverbal, as in the case of Hannah.13
Even though a prayer may not be verbalized at
the gathering, all the believers are joining in
prayer together. In essence, everyone there is
in prayer, men and women alike.
So even if a woman herself is not praying
aloud, she is still joining in with her brothers
and sisters who are gathered.
Because of this atmosphere of prayer and
because of the angels,14 a woman should have
a head covering on during the entire church
service, from the beginning until the benediction
and dismissal.
There are churches that teach that women
should wear a head covering at all times based
on the instruction that we are to “pray without
ceasing,”15 along with the Scripture in
1 Corinthians 11 for women to have a covering
when they pray.
People also base the practice of wearing
a head covering at all times on the fact that
both Old Testament Hebrew women and
Christian women throughout church history
wore head coverings all the time and not just
at spiritual gatherings.
One thing is certain, however; the Bible
clearly teaches in 1 Corinthians 11:3–16 that
a woman is to wear a head covering when she
prays and prophesies, which would include
any time during a spiritual gathering.
No specific instruction is given in the
Bible for the age when a girl should start
covering her head, but logic and common
sense tell us it should be from the time of
accountability. Tertullian, one of the early
church fathers around ad 200, affirms this
guidance.16
As we submit to the Lord’s teaching, practicing
the symbols He has given us, we begin
to realize that this is more than a simple,
physical action. As Jesus said when He washed
the disciples’ feet, “If you know these things,
blessed are you if you do them” (John 13:17).


from:

(Pdf Book) Head Coverings by K.P. Yohannan
http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/visit.php?lid=25173


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SI Moderator - Greg Gordon

 2014/6/25 13:42Profile





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