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 Re:

Sigh! How could 16 verses in the New Testament create such controversy one can only imagine.

And how many tines has this issue been debated? And pray tell for what?

Ok. Seems like we are do for a KJVO thread.

Bearmaster standing down.


 2014/6/24 18:11
MrBillPro
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Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 3235
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 Re:

Quote:
bearmaster....Sigh! How could 16 verses in the New Testament create such controversy one can only imagine.

And how many tines has this issue been debated? And pray tell for what?

Ok. Seems like we are do for a KJVO thread.

Bearmaster standing down.



Yes! and sometimes I wonder if some are debating to vent, or relieve some stress in their life. Using Gods word to do such, would not seem proper to me, but maybe it is. I know I have personally burn a lot of calories reading these debates. :)


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Mr. Bill

 2014/6/24 18:35Profile
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 Re:

Saints,

Discussing this topic should not be considered debating. Making those who raise the discussion around this scripture to be legalists or imposing on others "freedom in christ" or other things is wrong and one actual cause of threads like this to turn into debates.

We ask saints to contribute to this thread if they are able to "charitably" in love contribute. If you disagree and cannot do so with charity and rather just have sarcastic remarks then that will never help saints even if one is right that headcoverings is not biblical.

We encourage saints to prayerfully review this small booklet who are interested and contribute in love to this thread.

Almost all denominations practiced headcoverings throughout the 1950 years of Christianity. Just in the last 50 there has been a departure. (that is a fact). And today in North America less then 10% follow head-covering. (so they are a minority and not very focal, so let us be open to hearing them).

So even if we disagree we have to disagree humbly because most of church history is not behind our conclusion.

(Pdf Book) Head Coverings by K.P. Yohannan
http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/visit.php?lid=25173


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SI Moderator - Greg Gordon

 2014/6/24 18:45Profile
Oracio
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 Re:

brothers and sisters, these things are matters that can and should be discussed, but with a spirit of charity from both sides. We are dealing with a passage of Scripture which at face value seems to prescribe literal head coverings for women and some take it literally while others don't. It is a reasonable discussion among Christians. We should not look down upon believers who want to respectfully discuss these things in order to try to come to a proper biblical view point, or to respectfully share their views on it. The Lord is at work in our lives in various ways showing us different things through His Word and we cannot expect for all of us to have equal interests in topics.


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Oracio

 2014/6/24 19:03Profile
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 Re:

There is no doubt that the scripture DOES prescribe LITERAL head coverings. For a certain church. 2000 years ago.

Ample reason from different respected Bible teachers have been given why this was a culture specific command. I just checked and John Piper feels it was a command for that specific culture although the principle of submission stands today. No one, at least not me, is debating this.

I apologize for trying to throw some humor into this discussion, but the reason I do so is that this discussion cannot be resolved. Why cannot we all agree that there is freedom in this area and not condemn women who do not wear them.

I really think the thread should be locked as nothing fruitful can come of it. It has already made me type things I now regret.

By the way, in case you were wondering, I was just kidding about my wife. She actually wore head coverings when she was in Catholic school. If she forgot her fancy lace doily head cover, the nuns told her to grab a kleenex and 2 bobby pins. She said she had to resort to this on many occasions.


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Todd

 2014/6/24 20:11Profile
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 Re:

Brother,

To be honest your prior comment you made (the poem) of people saying that if they do not wear headcovering are going to hell was very harsh and wrong to even post something like that in the forums. It could be hurtful to both those who do not and those who "do" wear headcoverings.

If we took away any of those overly critical comments it has been a very helpful good thread for saints. May we see this continue and allow reasonable godly responses to the first poster that started the thread with the question.


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SI Moderator - Greg Gordon

 2014/6/24 21:04Profile
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 Re:

"Satire:
1. the use of irony, sarcasm, or ridicule in exposing, denouncing, or deriding vice, folly, etc."

The limerick was pure satire. It was so outrageous that it would be hard for me to imagine that someone would think I was being serious.

Just to clarify, I do not believe that a woman who does not wear a head covering is going to burn in hell. Some people might ( thus the reason for my bit is satire) but I certainly do not.

So we have MacArthur, Piper, and Chuck Smith on one side and Yohannen and Poonen on the other. I respect all these men. Can't we just call it a draw and move on?


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Todd

 2014/6/24 22:25Profile
romanchog
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 Re:

Reading all these posts on this issue (again) made me think of the verse:

"God looks at the heart, man at the outward appearance."

I do think that most of those commenting have been gracious in discussing this.


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Natalie

 2014/6/24 23:58Profile
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 Re: is head covering literal or spiritual


To Greg and his wife,

It was not my intent to offend you with my opinion, because that is all it is, my opinion. As I don’t want to feel less, I definitely do not want you to feel less because you do believe in head-coverings. I believe in freedom!



In the last years of Derek Prince’s life, his second wife was a woman who believed in and wore head-coverings but what amazes me (personally) is that through downloading and purchasing hundreds of his sermons, I have never heard one sermon on the topic nor did he write a book on the subject because this great Bible teacher knew it was not a commandment. The only reason I know she did is that I heard him make a passing comment on it once in a sermon that he had come to believe in it but he stated that that was their personal belief and then he stated the following verses and left it at that, period.

1 Cor 11.15-16
But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a covering. BUT IF ANY MAN SEEM TO BE CONTENTIOUS, WE HAVE NO SUCH CUSTOM, NEITHER THE CHURCHES OF GOD.

My point is that yes, he believed in it but in that little blurb that he spoke on it, he never once made me (or anyone else), feel less of Christian because we didn't believe in it. And in this day and age, we don’t find many people of God who can do that... separate what they personally believe “about” a scripture from the Scriptures.

Like bearmaster said, “standing down”!! :)

God bless,
Lisa


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Lisa

 2014/6/25 0:22Profile
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 Re:

"It’s Not about Us

The matter of head coverings is not about women’s subjection to men or of man losing his authority by not wearing it—it has nothing to do with custom, culture, history, man, woman or Paul’s own ideas.

This symbol transcends the physical realm and represents a much deeper reality than what we see here on earth.

In the same way, Holy Communion is not about us (although we are the ones doing it), but it’s a very important symbol given to us that speaks of Christ’s death 2,000 years ago.

In ancient Rome, Christians were scorned, rejected and some even killed for participating in the Holy Communion. They realized this tradition was not about them; rather, it was about Him. And that made all the difference.


It’s Not about Inferiority

Some misunderstand the purpose of head coverings, thinking they were instituted by men in an effort to make women feel inferior. This is not the case.

God is the One who ordained this authority structure in the beginning—a structure that can only work when we willingly submit to God’s authority. And we know that all authority is appointed by God. (see 2 Thessalonians 2:15, 3:6)

Man’s headship over woman is not the result of the Fall, but it was established in the Garden of Eden. (see 1 Corinthians 11:23, 14:37, 15:3)

Despite the connotations attached to it, subordination has nothing to do with inferiority, whether academically, anatomically, morally, socially, spiritually or anything else. Both male and female complement each other; both are interdependent of each other.

In the teachings on subordination found in the Bible, woman is subordinate to man because of the roles that God has given, not because of intrinsic value. (see Exodus 19:7)

The Lord knew the Enemy would use this fear of being inferior to hinder obedience. In answer to this, the teachings in 1 Corinthians 11 include verses 11 and 12: “Nevertheless, neither is man independent of woman, nor
woman independent of man, in the Lord. For as woman came from man, even so man also comes through woman; but all things are from God.”

There is a spiritual equality between man and woman, an equality that will continue after the Church age has come to an end. (see Romans 6:3–6)

Looking to the Godhead, we see that all three Persons in the Holy Trinity are the same essence. Yet for order to be maintained, there must be headship and subordination. The Son willingly subjected Himself to the will of His Father as the incarnate second person of the Holy Trinity. (see 1 Corinthians 11:23–26)

A woman displays this divine relationship and represents God’s government to the world; her willing subjection to wearing a covering is likened to Christ’s willing subjection to the Father.

The head covering then becomes a symbol for all to see, recognized and understood by the angels in heaven and the believers here on earth. What a privilege."

- K P Yohannan

 2014/6/25 3:32Profile





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