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 Re: God Cannot Look Upon Sin (Habakkuk 1:13)?

Many scriptures tell us that God is all-seeing. Here are a few:

“For the eyes of the Lord run to and fro throughout the whole earth, to show Himself strong on behalf of those whose heart is loyal to Him.” 2 Chr. 16:9

“For His eyes are on the ways of man, And He sees all his steps.” Job 34:21

“The Lord looks from heaven; He sees all the sons of men. From the place of His dwelling He looks On all the inhabitants of the earth; He fashions their hearts individually; He considers all their works.” Ps. 33:13-15

“For the ways of man are before the eyes of the Lord, And He ponders all his paths.” Prov. 5:21

“The eyes of the Lord are in every place, Keeping watch on the evil and the good.” Prov. 15:3

“For My eyes are on all their ways; they are not hidden from My face, nor is their iniquity hidden from My eyes.” Jer. 16:17

“You are great in counsel and mighty in work, for your eyes are open to all the ways of the sons of men, to give everyone according to his ways and according to the fruit of his doings.” Jer. 32:19

“And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are naked and open to the eyes of Him to whom we must give account.” Heb. 4:13

 2014/6/18 6:35
Sree
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Joined: 2011/8/20
Posts: 1714


 Re:

God turning his face away from Jesus is just a reference to the broken fellowship or sonship. It does not literally mean that god stopped looking at Jesus on the cross.


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Sreeram

 2014/6/18 7:53Profile
havok20x
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Joined: 2008/9/14
Posts: 786


 Re:

Let us consider the Day of Atonement found in Leviticus 16, especially verses 20-22. Now these are shadows of things to come, namely the day Jesus Christ atoned for our sins.

The scrapegoat had sins placed on it and then was driven out into the wilderness. Sounds familiar, right?

Jesus Christ is the fulfillment of those shadows. He is our scapegoat, having our sins placed upon Him. Just as the goat was to be in a desolate wilderness, so we see that in Psalm 22 and when Jesus was on the cross.

I don't need to explain away Jesus' cry. There are plenty of other scriptures, which we have named, to show that this isn't a single verse taken out of context.



Quote:
TRXX said:
We can understand enough of His Word with a plain reading but knowing the times in which they were written will surely enhance our knowledge. Must we though? Surely not I would agree.



This statement is not correct. If we truly believe that the scriptures are sufficient in and of themselves as our guide, used of the Holy Spirit to direct his children, and authoritative above all other writings, thoughts, or ideas of men, then we must live that out.

That means that anything outside of the scriptures, be it some supposedly historical fact, some experience, or some other writing that alters a plain reading of Scriptures, under the power of the Spirit, is unneeded and potentially dangerous. And if our understanding is adjusted because of those things, then we have stepped outside the confines of truth.

I know that is hard and that it is strict, but if we are talking about truth and talking about what Scripture means, then it must be this way.

So, the man in Swaziland has everything he needs for life and godliness, as provided by the Lord. He does not need Jewish history or traditions or anything other than the Holy Spirit to aid him in his understand of the Scriptures.

We cannot "interpret" (as if our interpretation bore any weight) scriptures except through the scriptures. They are self-contained.

 2014/6/18 10:48Profile
TMK
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Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5380
NC, USA

 Re:

That's a tough one. I agree that the Bible is self contained but cultural context is incredibly important to a proper understanding of some passages.

Just ask every Christian woman who doesn't wear a hat to church.


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Todd

 2014/6/18 12:02Profile
havok20x
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Joined: 2008/9/14
Posts: 786


 Re:

Quote:
I agree that the Bible is self contained but cultural context is incredibly important to a proper understanding of some passages.

Just ask every Christian woman who doesn't wear a hat to church.



I am going to post a new thread regarding this subject so as not to venture off into la-la land from the OP.

 2014/6/18 14:24Profile
trxx
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Joined: 2006/1/27
Posts: 85
ON Canada

 Re: God Cannot Look Upon Sin (Habakkuk 1:13

Thankyou TUC for the nice bit of research that you did to come up with those verses. It seems to me to fulfill 2 Timothy 2:15, "Be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed, accurately handling the word of truth."

re havok20x I appreciate your desire to start a new post so as not to hijack the original post. I am not convinced that it would be a hijack as the basic premise to this conversation is that beyond the "plain reading" of the text there is much historical, cultural context so as to give a better understanding of what is spoken. You cannot possibly deny the importance of cultural understanding. We cannot read plainly every text outside the writer's context or the interpreter's culture. There are cultures where Judas would become a hero because of the cultural norm that epitomizes betrayal. There most certainly times when we need to isolate our own cultural understandings or those of the writers in order to understand what is being said. Matthew 24:36, "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone" is best understood in light of the first century engagement/marriage customs. So the words of Jesus' cry, "My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?" are better understood within the cultural/historical context. The whole reason we have a variance of understanding concerning this verse is because some have tried to explain by means of a plain reading, foregoing any other influence, and the other side allowing for the cultural/historical influence. I read an English Bible but when it comes down to defining something of any significance I insist not on the definition of the English word but of the original language whether it be Hebrew or Greek. Its imperative for us to determine, as best we can, what the writer meant and not what the reader hears. There are times when they are at a variance. I certainly agree though a plain reading will do just fine for the most part.


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Bruce

 2014/6/18 14:52Profile
trxx
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Joined: 2006/1/27
Posts: 85
ON Canada

 Re:

re havok20x
I do want to thank you even though so far we disagree because you have helped to clarify, in my opinion, why it is that there is a variance. There is a plain reading or a historical/cultural reading. Each interpretation has a desire to stay true to its premise.


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Bruce

 2014/6/18 15:01Profile
havok20x
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Joined: 2008/9/14
Posts: 786


 Re:

At what point does a reader need the historical context, then? What is the determining factor? Is it at the moment when the reader is confused? Is it at the moment when it references something spiritual? Is it at the moment a metaphor is used? Is it with every scripture?

What if the scripture is referencing a little-known-fact? How do we know?

Quote:
There are cultures where Judas would become a hero because of the cultural norm that epitomizes betrayal. There most certainly times when we need to isolate our own cultural understandings or those of the writers in order to understand what is being said.



I definitely agree with this statement. It is improper exegesis to read my cultural understanding of anything into the scriptures.

Quote:
So the words of Jesus' cry, "My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?" are better understood within the cultural/historical context.



What tips you off to this? The response of those people on the ground certainly didn't seem to indicate that they were now mulling over Psalm 22.


Here is the inherent danger of interpreting things via some supposed cultural context:

1) Has the source of the extra-biblical information been verified? Is it historically accurate? Is it a source that can be trusted? What source did they use to determine this? Why did God forget to put that part in the Scriptures if it was so important to know in order to understand what He meant.

2) What scriptural support shows that this single verse should be interpretted via the context of the culture, altering our understanding of the event?

3) Why do the verses immediately adjacent not need to be interpreted that way?

4) Why is the context of the Scripture and the historical events as portrayed in scripture not sufficient for interpretting the passage?


Listen, brothers, do we actually believe Sola Scriptura? Is Scripture sufficient in and of itself? Or do we have to bring every single history book and word-of-mouth story into the equation for us to gain a proper understanding of Scripture?

Is it the final word in all matters of life and doctrine? If so, why is a plain reading of the scriptures being rejected?

 2014/6/18 16:54Profile
brothagary
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Joined: 2011/10/23
Posts: 1863


 Re:

good points havoc ,,,i allways say let scripture intreprate scrpiture ,,,,let the clear verses shead light on the not so clear ,,,rather then the other way round ,,


like jesus being forsaken say

1 we no he bacame sin

2 we know he bore sin in his body

3 we know he became a curse

4 we know god punished jesus with his full wrath ,that we should have recieved


5 we know he was a scapgoat


6 we know he even died andf went to hell

and 7 we know he said to god whay have you fosaken me

8 we know jesus nevered lied
and the last one that tops it of in my books

9 we knowjesus was never wrong ,,but allways wright
he knew the hearts of men ,,and he knew the heart of god

10 we know he said no one noes the father but the son


it is verry clear what the bible is telling us with the clear verses

so we let the WHAT WE KNOW
interpret the WHAT WE DONT KNOW

but realy it allready clear that jesus knew he was forsaken for a time ,,but when you add the rest of the clear statments in scripture ,,its undeniable to the unbaised mind ,what jesus went through

each of these ten points of scripture ,,can be expounded and made even clearer and the ones that may be doubtfull can be discused ,,,

any one want to start at nubmer 1 an expound the verse ,,and relate that back to why they feel or dont feel this is related to jesus being forsaken

i like exposatory preaching for the reason that one cant ignore certaint verses ,,and gloss over them and develope an enemic theoligy laking viatal truth

blessings

 2014/6/19 3:13Profile
TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5380
NC, USA

 Re:

Hi Gary-

I have a side question for you that is not 100% related to the topic at hand.

You said: "we know Jesus was never wrong but always right."

I know that probably 99.9% of people would accept your statement at face value as true. But being a tad weird I sometimes think about things a little more deeply than perhaps I should.

I agree that Jesus never sinned. That is a given, of course. But I am not willing to state that Jesus was not ever wrong about a certain fact. I think this because Jesus divested Himself of deity when He became a man. I don't believe Jesus, in His humanity, was omniscient. He was very closely in tune with the Father particularly after His baptism so I am even talking more about when he was younger. For example, did He have perfect memory for every person's name he ever met? Did he ever have to use an eraser when learning math or spelling? (Of course I know they didn't have erasers but you get the point).

It does not subtract from the deity of Jesus to suggest that he may have been mistaken about certain facts at least a few times in His life. I know that this may seem shocking to some but the Bible does say that He grew in wisdom and knowledge.


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Todd

 2014/6/19 6:30Profile





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