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 Re:

Quote:
by bearmaster on 2014/4/9 15:01:55

Paul, giving as anything under the New Covenant is a discipline that needs to be taught. To say a believer is released from not giving will breed selfishness and arrogance.



Bearmaster, that is an astounding statement about God's children and one that I find often coming from the religious system.

You misunderstand what Paul is saying we are released from. Paul is absolutely correct that a Believer is released from manipulations and "disciplines" put on them by men.

We are certainly not released from the functioning and leading of the Holy Spirit within us. Why do you have such an opinion that a Believer will not respond to the giving life of Christ within him and must be regulated by men?

Why can't you see this? Do you depend on men in any way for your daily provision and have you been disappointed with their performance?

 2014/4/9 15:42
KingJimmy
Member



Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

Indeed Mary. Most of the mortgages I underwrite for a living are for people who live in New Jersey, Maine, New York, Connecticut, and Pennslyvania. The expenses associated with living in most of these states is absolutely amazingly high. And when I see how small the homes are compared to where I live, and the price tags assocaited with them, I grieve for the people that live there.

The living expenses for my theoretical budget only works in places where "y'all" is in the dictionary, and sweet tea is our champagne.


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Jimmy H

 2014/4/9 15:43Profile
TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5379
NC, USA

 Re:

Quote: "The important thing is that we should never prod or make a believer feel he or she is wrong for not giving. That is unchristlike according to scripture, for it is none of our business. It is a heart matter between the believer and God."

But according to the clear teaching of the NT is IS wrong not to give. It is not right to be selfish. Therefore is it not right that Christians be instructed about such things?

The best sermons I have heard about giving approach it from the angle of how to be a good steward. Let's face it-- many Christians in the USA are consumed by debt because the live like the rest of Americans who are also consumed by debt. The biblical model of stewardship turns the worlds way of handling money on its head which is what my first post on page 1 shows.

In general it is a lack of discipline and unwillingness to give up certain things that put Christians in financial difficulty. Not in every case but usually. If a person follows biblical principles this can be avoided. Again I ask.. Why did Jesus talk so much about money?


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Todd

 2014/4/9 15:43Profile
PaulWest
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Joined: 2006/6/28
Posts: 3405
Dallas, Texas

 Re:

Quote:
But according to the clear teaching of the NT is IS wrong not to give. It is not right to be selfish. Therefore is it not right that Christians be instructed about such things?


You are assuming that not giving equates to selfishness. What I am taking about is not "not giving", but being free from the compulsion of giving for the sake of giving. If the Holy Spirit is leading you to give, you give. If He doesn't, you don't. It doesn't matter what ethics say, or what a preacher says. Giving is between the believer and God and it is not anyone's business how much or how often or to where you give. I know this infuriates, because it bespeaks total liberty. We want to be bound by dictates, by discipline, by rules. The only rule we should have is that of the heart, motivated by love. No one needs to teach a believer to give cheerfully; it is spontaneous and utterly transcends any kind of percentage or law because it is purposed in the heart. It is pure, like the widow's mite. Please show me a New Testament verse where this concept is refuted.


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Paul Frederick West

 2014/4/9 15:57Profile
MaryJane
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Joined: 2006/7/31
Posts: 3057


 Re:

by PaulWest on 2014/4/9 12:57:07

Quote:
But according to the clear teaching of the NT is IS wrong not to give. It is not right to be selfish. Therefore is it not right that Christians be instructed about such things?


You are assuming that not giving equates to selfishness. What I am taking about is not "not giving", but being free from the compulsion of giving for the sake of giving. If the Holy Spirit is leading you to give, you give. If He doesn't, you don't. It doesn't matter what ethics say, or what a preacher says. Giving is between the believer and God and it is not anyone's business how much or how often or to where you give. I know this infuriates, because it bespeaks total liberty. We want to be bound by dictates, by discipline, by rules. The only rule we should have is that of the heart, motivated by love. No one needs to teach a believer to give cheerfully; it is spontaneous and utterly transcends any kind of percentage or law because it is purposed in the heart. It is pure, like the widow's mite. Please show me a New Testament verse where this concept is refuted.
___________

Amen Paul Amen!!

 2014/4/9 16:04Profile
KingJimmy
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Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

In all fairness to us American Christians and our selfish consumer driven lifestyles who are burdened down with many debts, some of us simply have not known any better, as nobody has ever really taught us true Biblical stewardship. I must admit, I went through Bible college, and the only amount of financial stewardship teachings I heard centered around tithing. The same goes in the church.

I fear many pastors don't know how to teach on good financial stewardship because they are lacking a sound Biblical foundation in the matter too. Most of us have been extremely blinded by our culture in this regard, that, even though we read our Bibles, we still think and act like most unsaved people do with our money.

And for many of us, we don't realize and learn good Biblical stewardship until we are so covered in debt that the decision to suddenly get off the hampster wheel is very difficult to do. If I got saved yesterday, but had a debt-to-income ratio of 40%, there isn't much I'm probably going to be able to do in order to change that anytime soon. Practically speaking, even if you go buck wild with Dave Ramsey, it'll probably be several years before you are in the place to give as freely as you would probalby like.


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Jimmy H

 2014/4/9 16:10Profile









 Re:

The church world expends a lot of effort to separate men from their wallets rather than teaching separation from the world.

But, that is exactly what the world does. The world is always taking advantage of it's fellow man trying to separate them from their resources and provision.

 2014/4/9 16:57









 Re:

PaulWest writes........

"You are assuming that not giving equates to selfishness. What I am taking about is not "not giving", but being free from the compulsion of giving for the sake of giving. If the Holy Spirit is leading you to give, you give. If He doesn't, you don't. It doesn't matter what ethics say, or what a preacher says. Giving is between the believer and God and it is not anyone's business how much or how often or to where you give. I know this infuriates, because it bespeaks total liberty. We want to be bound by dictates, by discipline, by rules. The only rule we should have is that of the heart, motivated by love. No one needs to teach a believer to give cheerfully; it is spontaneous and utterly transcends any kind of percentage or law because it is purposed in the heart. It is pure, like the widow's mite. Please show me a New Testament verse where this concept is refuted. "

I add my amen's to that of MaryJane!!! This reality of freedom is very scary for many people but indeed, He whom the Son set free is free indeed............bro Frank

 2014/4/9 17:00
TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5379
NC, USA

 Re:

Paul-

What you are saying sounds good and I am not sure I disagree with it.

But Jesus commanded that we go and "teach everything I have commanded you." The question we must then ask is, "Did Jesus teach us to give?"

If the answer is "yes" then we must teach about giving. I am not saying that we should ask people what they make and keep track of what they give. I am saying they should be taught about biblical stewardship.

That concept is found in the teachings of Jesus, that a person who follows Christ must forsake “all that he has” (Lk. 14:33/ Mt.13:44-46). The ceremonial law served as a precursor of this NT revelation. The latter teaches that all of God’s people, having been “bought with a price,” are not their own, but are owned entirely by Jesus Christ (1 Cor.6:19-20). ALL of the believer’s time and ALL of his possessions belong to God.

The Christian is a “steward”, or “manager,” of somebody else’s (God’s) possessions. I agree that he is not in some partnership arrangement with God in which God holds 10% and he holds 90%. In coming to Christ, the repentant sinner surrenders EVERYTHING to God, and claims ownership of **nothing** (Acts 4:32). At conversion, the believer becomes responsible to manage every asset (monetary or otherwise) in the interests of the Master’s profit. whoever seeks to reserve a share of their lives for themselves should not bother applying (Lk 9:23).

What must the steward do? He must discharge his responsibility in exactly the manner that his Master would do if He were in the steward’s shoes. What would God spend His money on? The Scriptures give us plenty of guidance on this matter. Throughout Scripture, God expresses His concern for the helpless poor and the support of ministers of the Word of God. A gift to the poor is a gift to God Himself (Prov.19:17/Mt.25:37-40), and is the method of depositing treasures in heaven (Mk 10:21/Lk. 12:33). Giving to the needy is merely an expression of the mandate to love our neighbor as we love ourselves (Lk. 10:27-37).

We must also realize that God promises to meet the needs of His servants and their families. Therefore, a certain amount of our income must be devoted to the feeding, housing and clothing of our families (1 Tim.5:8). Nor is there any forbidding of a few things for enjoyment alone (1 Tim.6:17). How many such things? That is between the steward and his Master, and is not for another to judge (Rom.14:4). HOWEVER, we must guard against our own relentless tendency to judge our own actions (and expenditures) more favorably than the facts would suggest. In eternity, I believe that our joy will be in proportion to our self-denial in this life and our generosity to the poor and to the work of God.

In the first century after the apostles, Christians understood that tithing had been replaced by full surrender to God. In "Against Heresies," Irenaeus wrote, “[The Old Testament saints] offered their tithes; but those who have received liberty set apart everything they have for the Lord’s use, cheerfully and freely giving them, not as small things in hope of greater, but like that poor widow, who put her whole livelihood into the treasury of God.” The Didache (early second century) states: “Do not hesitate to give, and do not give with a bad grace; for you will discover who He is that repays you. . .Do not turn your back on the needy, but share everything with your brother and call nothing your own.”

I guess my whole point in all this is that when you look at what the Bible teaches about stewardship, tithing may be getting off cheap in comparison.


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Todd

 2014/4/9 17:52Profile
havok20x
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Joined: 2008/9/14
Posts: 786


 Re:

We are not discussing about whether or not we can teach about giving.

We are discussing whether or not tithing or threat of condemnation of some sort is a viable means of doing so.

 2014/4/9 17:58Profile





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