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Discussion Forum : Articles and Sermons : The Dark Side of Tithing Testimonies

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havok20x
Member



Joined: 2008/9/14
Posts: 786


 Re:

"I have always found it quite brazen regarding the liberties that the religious system takes in prying into the private matters of their members."

Just-in,

This "religious system" is the church. 2 Corinthians 8-9 is does not say things like, "giving is a private matter, so I am not discussing it." No, Paul spends 2 chapters dedicated to exhorting the bretheren to give with generosity AND gives them several motives and reasons why they should do this. Now was that written only for the corinthians or was the written for us as well? Did Paul leave it a private matter, yes of the heart. But it is absolutely silly to think that we were bought at the cost of the blood of the Son of God, that He adopted us into His family, that we are now Brothers and Sisters and responsible one for another, but yet we maintain some degree of privacy from one another. We are one. Should we let our left hand know what our right hand is doing--no. Can I teach on true, biblical giving and make blanket statements like, "He who sows sparingly will reap sparingly". Yes. I can.

---------

King Jimmy,

If I ran my finances with that much debt involved, I can see exactly why I am unable to give. I am a slave to my debtor. I would rather NEVER own a house and not be a slave to anyone but Christ than to spend 1/3 of my total income per year on a house.

 2014/4/9 11:13Profile









 Re:

Yes, there are general references to giving and not being a debtor. Brothers and Sisters are responsible to pray and encourage and exhort and many things, but not to know every private matter of their brethren. And not to take the liberty with their brethren to tell them whether they are giving enough.

And no, there is not a system that is the church. The religious system is not the church. People make up the church and they are scattered within and without the religious system.

The religious system is built on a corporate hiearchy whose engine is mammon. And it's weekly, monthly, quarterly, yearly budget and salaries must be supported by a system of religious taxes.

 2014/4/9 11:24
havok20x
Member



Joined: 2008/9/14
Posts: 786


 Re:

Ah, I got your meaning now, just-in. I thought you meant the religious system referring to biblical principals.

 2014/4/9 11:30Profile
KingJimmy
Member



Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

Quote:

King Jimmy,

If I ran my finances with that much debt involved, I can see exactly why I am unable to give. I am a slave to my debtor. I would rather NEVER own a house and not be a slave to anyone but Christ than to spend 1/3 of my total income per year on a house.



That may seem like a rather high mortgage payment, but it is pretty typical for what banks lend. IMO, most people should try to get a mortgage that is no more than 20% of their gross monthly income. But banks will lend up to 36% in some instances. So, 25%, which is what I used in my example, is still pretty conservative.

And in the area where I live, you'll be hard pressed to buy a home for under $1,000 a month for principal, interest, taxes, and insurance (fully escrowed). Most people I know are easily paying $1200-$2000 a month.

For anything below that, you'll have to move a pretty good ways out of the county, or live in a really run down part of town. But if you chose to do that, you'll easily see your monthly gas prices increased due to the increased drive. So you might be able to live in an older home for $800 a month... but it'll cost you in other ways to do so.


_________________
Jimmy H

 2014/4/9 11:36Profile









 Re:

Quote:
by havok20x on 2014/4/9 11:30:27

Ah, I got your meaning now, just-in. I thought you meant the religious system referring to biblical principals.



Cool. From your past posts, I was surprised by your statement, too. But, now I see where you are coming from.

:-)

 2014/4/9 11:52









 Re:

Brethren I think something is being missed in this thread. Some questions need to be asked.

Why did God require the Israelites to tithe? For what reason? Was it not to show their dependence upon God who provided for their physical needs.

Under the New Covenant why do we give back to God? Is it not the same. O show our dependence upon God who provides for our physical needs.

Does God need our giving or tithes? No. He owns it all. But because we still battle sin we would become selfish or self centered if we did not have a practice of giving back to God or rendering back to God first fruits.

I can offer testimonies of Christians who do not give out of first fruits and they are arrogant, self centered, conceited, and worry about finances. I know. I was such a person. Until God broke me.

The practice of giving guards us from being consumed on our selfish desires. Also I have found by rendering back to God first fruits I do not worry about finances. He graciously provides.

Bearmaster

 2014/4/9 12:15
KingJimmy
Member



Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

Bearmaster,

I don't think anybody here is against being gracious and giving. I believe everybody here regularly gives, some below 10% and some above 10%.

The purpose of this discussion has been, I do believe, is simply to highlight the fact that there is a lot more going on than usually is seen in the church. There has been a lot of abuse that has hurt a lot of people in a very real way.


_________________
Jimmy H

 2014/4/9 12:31Profile









 Re:

The fallacy is that giving for a child of God, is all about money.

 2014/4/9 12:33
havok20x
Member



Joined: 2008/9/14
Posts: 786


 Re:

According to the Scriptures, the Levis had no inherentance. The tithe was designed to do 3 things:

1) Take care of the Levites

2) Take care of the poor

3) Take care of other theocratic expenses (of course, involving the Levites duties).

Look at Numbers 18:21 and afterward.

Integrating the law back into grace will mean we will once again become self-condemned and it will be nothing more than checklist christianity--some examples: "Brother, I already gave my 10%; I did my duty.", "Brother, maybe if you tithed than you wouldn't be struggling so much.", "This church pays it's bills and everyone tithes, but we have nothing left. I guess God doesn't want us to minister to the poor and needy of our community."

And don't even think that tithers don't think like that. Cause they do. I go to a church full of them. They mark their check box and attained financial holiness for the week.

Let me explain to you how complex it has gotten where I attend church: People talk about tithing like it is an obligation, but if you aren't giving offerings (some mysterious extra amount), then you aren't fulfilling your duty. They say tithing is commanded, but the real blessings don't start flowing until you give sacrificial offerings, and the more sacrificially you give, the more blessed you will be, because, as everyone knows, "You can't outgive God." Not sure what version of the Bible that's in, but people quote it more than they do any other Christianese saying (thanks brother in the other post for that new word). So now we have this: "I put in my tithe plus the $20 I was gonna spend on cokes. I am now financially holy and well-pleasing to the Lord."

I talked to my pastor about it one time, showing him in scripture the error. His response to me was this: "Well, everyone wants their blessing."

I just wanted to beat my head into the wall.

 2014/4/9 12:36Profile









 Re:

God does not rule by condemnation, guilt and coercion but the Enemy does and he does it very successfully, through men.

Many men do it ignorantly because that is how they were raised in the religious system and their ear is attuned more to men and their doctrines than to the Lord. Men's doctrines nullify God's word.

Other men, are not ignorant at all about what they are doing.

 2014/4/9 13:11





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