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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Discussion of the Pretrib Rapture and Other End Time Topics

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psalm1
Member



Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 1230


 Re:

Also, if the great tribulation only going to happen in Israel and the countries around her, then why does other scriptures like in Rev 13:12 says "causeth the earth and them which dwell therein" to worship the beast or not they will be killed? "

Several dynamics here
Remember,the church is raptured immediately and those left behind only last a few weeks or months before ALL believers are beheaded.
Look at the gathering of the Jews to one location,Israel.
Apparently this makes things easier as far as the intensity of the wrath.At this point the times of the gentiles is finished(church dealt w/first then the Jews)
But the world is a small place.The GT and AC's rule will be world wide.
The entire church IS GATHERED.(graves,alive and remain,the left behind later beheaded,then the 2 witnesses,followed by the 144k)
Several raptures.
purpose=wedding supper

 2014/5/4 13:52Profile
psalm1
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Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 1230


 Re:

double post

 2014/5/4 14:08Profile









 Re:Psalm 1

Sorry bro. The Pretrib Rapture is a Western theological invention of Darby and Scoffield designed to let Christians escape the reality of persecution.

Jesus never taught it. The Apostles never taught it. The early church never embraced it. And the persecuted church today does not teach this. Indeed the Christians in N.Korea will tell you they are in the Great Tribulation.

Bear

 2014/5/4 14:17
proudpapa
Member



Joined: 2012/5/13
Posts: 2936


 

Bear I agree.

I would recommend every one to get a small booklet that I have : Four Views of the End Times by Rose Publishing :

http://www.rose-publishing.com/Four-Views-Of-The-End-Times-Pamphlet-P225.aspx,

it is a none biased booklet that gives a good little summery of four common views of eschatology: Historical Premillennialism, Amillennialism ,Postmillennialism ,Dispensational Premillennialism.
I have found the booklet to not show any favortism to any one of the four views but just to present facts about each view.
In it they agree that dispensational premillennialism first emerged in the 1800s amoung the Plymouth Brethren (Darby)

 2014/5/4 14:59Profile
budgie
Member



Joined: 2011/2/25
Posts: 266


 Re: Recommend reading

I can recommend also an interesting Book on all views by Kevin J Conner called The Christian Millennium

A well presented Book that gives an insight

Also look at mysouthland.com, davidpawson.org and joelstrumpet by joel richardson

We know one thing for sure and that is We will be raised at the Last Trumpet, Jesus said He will raise us at the Last Day, Jesus was the First to be Raised in the Immortal body and we all will be raised in the same body at His Coming

There is not one verse that states that Jesus is Coming before the Tribulation, Jesus told us when He is Coming and He said DO NOT BE DECIEVED
Jesus said He was Coming after the Tribulation, Jesus does not say anywhere that He is Coming before the Tribulation

 2014/5/5 23:18Profile
TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 6650
NC, USA

 Re:

Quote: "Jesus said He was Coming after the Tribulation, Jesus does not say anywhere that He is Coming before the Tribulation."

Absolutely- and since the great tribulation has already happened he could be coming at any second. Be ready!


_________________
Todd

 2014/5/6 6:32Profile
budgie
Member



Joined: 2011/2/25
Posts: 266


 Re: hello tmk

I have a question for you

Of the tribulation has already happened then who is the antichrist
What is the 666 mark of the beast
Who is the false prophet
Where and who are the two witnesses
What were the locusts
Where are the rivers and oceans poisoned
What is the great city destroyed
When was the sun,moon darkened
When did the stars fall from heaven
Where are the 144000
Where and who are the 10 kings that reign with the antichrist that destroyed the harlot

I will be ready each day
Serving Jesus and encouraging others to trust even to death
My life can end today

 2014/5/6 21:40Profile
TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 6650
NC, USA

 Re:

Simple answer: apocalyptic language. Highly symbolic language. Rev talks repeatedly of things that must soon come to pass.

Expand your horizons a little.

Jesus is coming again pretty much everything else has already happened. No there aren't really locusts that look like women. This is simply a symbolic description of demonic hordes that drove the Jews to insane antics in the siege of Jerusalem in 70 AD. Read josephus's history of that war. It is available on ccel. It will be an eye opening experience.


_________________
Todd

 2014/5/6 22:11Profile
budgie
Member



Joined: 2011/2/25
Posts: 266


 Re: TMK symbolic language and symbolic description

Thanks for your reply TMK

I have read Josephus' history and am aware of those historic events

Those Historic events which were real did not however fulfil any of the list of questions that I had asked

There is always a reality to the symbolic

It states quite clearly that there is an Antichrist, false prophet, 2 witnesses, all of the realities of the Great Tribulation which when they happen will be something that has never been before or will ever happen again after.

It says that Jesus will destroy this Antichrist and False Prophet at His Coming

Again who is this Antichrist person and the False Prophet if you can say that Jesus can come at any moment

Also when did the 2 witnesses die and when were they dead in the streets for 3 1/2 days and then Resurrected as these are alive during the reign of the Antichrist

By what you are saying there will never be any Tribulation on earth that was greater than 70 AD.

You said that the Locusts drove the Jews to insane antics in 70 AD but the word says the following

Rev 9:1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.
Rev 9:2 And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.
Rev 9:3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
Rev 9:4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
Rev 9:5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.

These locusts harm those that do not have the seal of God, for 5 months, it does not say Jews
Those that do not have seal of God are those that do not trust in God

Also if the Locusts came in 70 AD at the 5th Trumpet as you say then the effects of first 4 trumpets also would have been recorded in History as follows
Hail and fire cast to earth and 1/3 trees and grass burned up
1/3 part of sea struck
1/3 sea life and 1/3 ships destroyed
1/3 rivers and fountains poisoned
1/3 sun moon and stars darkened and 1/3 day and night did not shine

These events surely have not happened or recorded in history as happening

I myself am one that looks at where the events line up to what the scripture says.

I can see no Antichrist here at present and no 2 witnesses in Jerusalem

I would appreciate if you can answer the questions that I had asked in the earlier post as you said they had already been fulfilled.

 2014/5/7 0:36Profile
TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 6650
NC, USA

 Re:

I cannot answer as you wish because I do not believe your list contains a literal fulfillment.

If you go on the equip.org website and do a search on the eschatology items available there you will see how he addresses at least some of your questions.

Steve Gregg does as well at thenarrowpath.com in his "When will these things be" eschatology lectures and his Revelation lectures.

Steve Gregg also has a book entitled "Revelation: Four Views" which lays out each major view of Rev side by side in a column format.

I realize that practically every if not every evangelical church teaches a literal application of Revelation except even they disagree with you and teach a pre-trib rapture. You need to go elsewhere to get exposed to different takes on the "end times" scriptures.

I was a die-hard pre-tribber not terribly long ago and taught it with my handy dandy chart timelines etc. Of course I never knew or heard anything different in any church I attended or any sermon I heard on the radio. And that is because the preachers of those sermons probably never learned or heard anything different either. In fact I did not even KNOW there were other views on the matter out there until a few years back. To me, that is a crying shame.


_________________
Todd

 2014/5/7 6:24Profile





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