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jujashan4
Member



Joined: 2009/1/11
Posts: 77


 Re:

1 John 1:9 "...... he will forgive ......."
Clearly not "he has already forgiven".
Your future sins are not already forgiven. They are already paid for.
That's what I see from scripture.
Let's rather walk according to the Spirit so we don't gratify the sinful nature.
Let's build ourselves up in this most holy faith.

Take the Word as it is.

With love brothers and sisters.


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Andrew Wales

 2014/1/2 7:34Profile
Sidewalk
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Joined: 2011/11/11
Posts: 705
San Diego

 Re: Take the word as it is!

Good Theology comes from taking the Word as it is written. Jesus said that the Son of Man would give His life "as a ransom for many." Not for all, and not with any guarantees for certain groups of people. Those issues are addressed in other passages.

The sacrifice of Jesus on the cross enables God to save every man, but it does not obligate Him to save any one. Sinners who repent and ask for that death to be the substitute for the death they owe will be saved. Those who try other tricks so as to be able to continue in their sin will find themselves guilty and exposed, without a claim to a share in the Kingdom of God.

Again, wisdom from above is pure, peaceable, reasonable, and full of good fruit. His ways are just, His love is vast and complete, His quest to fill the halls of His kingdom with the souls of men knows no limit.

But His justice is sure. No man comes to the Father who is not covered in the blood of the Son.


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Tom Cameron

 2014/1/2 11:18Profile
AbideinHim
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Joined: 2006/11/26
Posts: 3462
Louisiana

 Re:

Thank you brothers for this discussion on grace and the abuse of grace by some teachers.

What about the issue of confessing our sins, which one grace teacher says that Christians no longer need to do? 1 John 1:9) makes it very clear that if we confess our sins that He is faithful and just to forgive us of our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."

As has already been mentioned, what about the sins that we forget? Also in 1 John the Word says that "If we walk in the light, as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin." Walking in the light means that any sin that we have knowledge of will not be tolerated, but will be immediately confessed and repented of. To walk in known sin is to walk in darkness.

There is one well known grace teacher that is teaching that not only is it unncessary for Christians to confess their sins, but that the Holy Spirit is not convicting Christians
of their sins.

Sin is harmful to a Christian because until dealt with and put under the blood, it breaks our fellowship with God. The confession of sin is so that fellowship will be restored.

When a Christian sins, he does not loose his salvation, he is still a child of God, however if a Christian continues to live in willful sin, he is on a very dangerous path, and could end up in (Hebrews 10:26).

Praise God that Jesus Christ not only died to save us from the penalty of sin, but to deliver us from sinning. If we walk in the Spirit , we will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh.

Mike


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Mike

 2014/1/2 16:10Profile









 Re:

Quote:
by ZekeO on 2014/1/1 10:37:08

Being quite unashamedly in the hyper grace camp, whatever that may mean, there is not going to be a resolution to this issue until Jesus comes again. So discussing this again is a moot point in my mind.

But, what I will say is this. Any doctrine/teaching that does not glorify the Lord Jesus Christ and cause me to love my brethren more is of the anti Christ spirit.

Whatever side of the fence you sit on on this issue, let the person you believe in and the message you carry, bare fruit to God. Loving the Lord Jesus to greater levels of intimacy and loving the people he brings across your path!!!



And, any doctrine that does not lead you to put to death the deeds of the flesh does not glorify Christ.

 2014/1/2 16:30
twayneb
Member



Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 1997
Joplin, Missouri

 Re:

Lysa: Sorry for the delay, but life happens. I did not want to ignore your question to me.

I wanted to preface my remarks this way. It has been my observation that one really good way to turn attention from seeking truth to establishing prejudice is to carefully phrase the object one is speaking about. I am a bit amused by the term "hyper-grace", as if an unmerited gift could ever by too free. The prefix "hyper" carries with it an immediate negative connotation. None of us would argue at all that we can only be saved by the unmerited grace of God, and by putting faith in that gift of grace. This is foundational Christianity, and unarguable doctrine. But really, I think the question should be the one you brought up originally. Does God's gift of grace bring about a forgiveness conditional upon our remaining "sin-free", or does that grace extend also to sins that we have not yet committed. Does each new infraction bring with it the necessity to be forgiven all over again, or is that infraction already forgiven even prior to its occurrence?

I think we tend, sometimes, to quickly classify people in the body and make assumptions about what they believe. If someone says that God's grace covers even our future sins, we immediately group them with those who we classify as once saved, always saved, or with those who teach that God loves everyone to the extent that He will not pour out wrath on anyone. We put all of this in one basket and label it "hyper-grace". Actually, the belief that one cannot ever lose salvation is an error of not looking at the whole counsel of scripture. The belief that God could never send anyone to hell is a heresy and a total misunderstanding of the concept of who God really is.

That being said, I do believe that the grace of God covers not only the sins that I have committed in the past, but also those I have not yet committed. As a person who is born again, I do not believe that if I blow it and sin that I am now in a state of not being born again and must be re-forgiven or "born again again". I would like to share with you a few scriptures and comments that I believe are applicable to the discussion.

In the Psalms, David gave a prophecy which Paul quoted as he wrote his letter to the Romans: Ps. 32:1-2, "A Psalm of David, Maschil. Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered. Blessed is the man unto whom the LORD imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile." As Paul quotes he says this, "Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin." Notice that Paul did not say, "has not imputed sin", but, "will not impute sin."

Paul makes this statement again in 2 Cor. 5:19. He says, "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation."

God is no longer imputing my sins unto me. This very statement is the reason that the Jews rejected the gospel and wanted to kill Paul. They thought this statement was heresy. They were living under a law that condemned, but never did anything to end the condemnation. It pronounced judgement, but offered no cure.

Paul said in Eph. 2:14-15 (it would be good to read the entire chapter, but for sake of space I will quote only two or three verses). "For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:" It is interesting here that Paul does not say that the enmity between us and God was our acts of sin. Rather, he says the enmity was the law itself. Now we know that the law was Holy, just, righteous, and Godly. It came from God. But Scripture tells us that sin is not imputed where there is no law (Romans 5:13). So it was the law, the picture of God's standard, that judged us and condemned us before God. God judged our sin by the law. Our sin was totally unacceptable in His sight. So, He sent Jesus to pay the penalty demanded by the law and reconcile us. He put the law to death on the cross and by His sacrifice we now have peace with God.

Hebrews 10 (the entire chapter) but specifically verse 1 and 10 for sake of brevity.
Heb 10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
Heb 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
Heb 10:11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
Heb 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

Here we find the sacrifice of the body of Jesus was done once. (The words for all were added by the translators and do not appear in the original text) This does not mean once for all men, but in the context of the chapter can only mean once for all time. In verse 12 it is reiterated by the statement "for ever" This word for ever is the same word used in verse 1 for continually. It means in perpetuity. The sacrifice of Christ does not need to be reapplied over and over again each time I miss the mark. Jesus can never again step from the throne and climb upon a cross to pay for a new sin. The sacrifice is for all sins, for all time.

We appropriate this sacrifice when we turn from sin and by faith receive God's grace.

I think what makes this seem so foreign to many people is that we are so focused at times on our flesh. We tend to have a carnal mindset. This is evidenced when we say things like, "Well the Bible cannot mean that even future sins are forgiven. If that were the case, then what prevents a person from simply saying a prayer for forgiveness and then continuing to live a life of sin because, after all, they are "forgiven".

But that question ignores what happens when a person is truly born again. When we are born again, we become new creatures. Old things are passed away, all things are become new. Paul anticipated the same question when he got to what we call the 6th chapter of Romans. What am I trying to say then, shall we continue in sin that grace may abound. God forbid. You see, when we are born again, our spirit is regenerated (John 3). We are dead to the flesh, dead to the old man of sin, and alive unto God. How can one who is dead to sin desire to live any longer in that sin?

So should we repent when we sin? Well...yes. Repentance does not mean a prayer for forgiveness, nor does it mean confession. Although, we may do both of those things in the process. Repentance is turning from that sin and going in the opposite direction. Every time I have sinned, I have had this reaction within myself to my actions, "What on earth am I doing. This grieves me and I know it grieves God. God, I am so sorry that I have done this. This is not consistent with who You have caused me to be in Christ. Lord, I turn from this and ask you go give me the grace to never go back this way again." This should be the reaction of all who are born again. No born again man will desire to continue in sin. It is a total impossibility. If such a man exists, I fear he has never been born again.

Hope that helps explain where I am coming from.







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Travis

 2014/1/2 18:52Profile
InTheLight
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Joined: 2003/7/31
Posts: 2734
Phoenix, Arizona USA

 Re:

Quote:
Sin is harmful to a Christian because until dealt with and put under the blood, it breaks our fellowship with God. The confession of sin is so that fellowship will be restored.



This is a very important point in my mind. So much of what the free-grace theology folks discuss seems to center on losing ones salvation but that seems like a very man-centered point of view; so much more is lost when the Christian lives in willful sin.

Fellowship with God is lost, grieving His heart.

Priestly prayer ministry is lost, robbing those around us of heaven's blessings.

Spirit-filled ministry is lost, robbing the Church of encouragement, exhortation, and edification.

Such terrible loss suffered by so many when the Christian lives in sin.

In Christ,

Ron


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Ron Halverson

 2014/1/2 19:51Profile
Sidewalk
Member



Joined: 2011/11/11
Posts: 705
San Diego

 Re: Ongoing forgiveness

In an intellectual discussion, it is a reasonable point to wonder whether people who are born again lose their salvation on a regular basis when they fall into some sin along their daily path.

But somehow it is different when we use a relationship-based discussion.

When my wife and I come into some interpersonal strife, we do not divorce and remarry as our solution to the problem of the day. Rather we learn to confess and forgive one another, sometimes easily and sometimes with more grinding reluctance. But we look to a long range commitment to help us through, as we share goals for our future. We treasure things bigger than ourselves- our children and their children, our reputation in society, and of course the promises we have made to God.

Dealing with future sins falls into that relationship I work on with God everyday. I am committed to a sinless life, the expectation of my beloved Father. But I do sin from time to time, preferring something in my path over my normal obedience and against what I know is best for me. My Father is not pleased, but because we are in relationship, He lets me know!

I am not as one boxing in the dark, swinging punches at shadows and illusions. I know fellowship has been broken because my spirit has been alerted, and my repentance tools are called into action. Repentance is not just something I fumbled through once at my conversion, but a character quality that gets used and improved as my pursuit of righteousness and pleasing my Father continues.

This I believe to be true, that God hears every prayer uttered, but those who pray with repentant hearts hear Him back. He knows how to keep those who belong to Him, and how to direct those caught in sin to repentance and restoration. When people live in that kind of fellowship, their joy and assurance of salvation will not be broken.

But those who think they have a magic ticket to sin because they went forward once at some church meeting... they have not come to know God.


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Tom Cameron

 2014/1/2 23:09Profile
a-servant
Member



Joined: 2008/5/3
Posts: 435


 Re:

More than that is lost, the gospel is lost - the substitute sounds like that:

"You shall not surely die, Jesus abolished sin, just remember where there is no law there is no sin"

it's a classic, now modernized bait offer some find irresistible.

 2014/1/2 23:09Profile









 Re:

Quote:
by InTheLight on 2014/1/2 19:51:50

Sin is harmful to a Christian because until dealt with and put under the blood, it breaks our fellowship with God. The confession of sin is so that fellowship will be restored.

This is a very important point in my mind. So much of what the free-grace theology folks discuss seems to center on losing ones salvation but that seems like a very man-centered point of view; so much more is lost when the Christian lives in willful sin.

Fellowship with God is lost, grieving His heart.

Priestly prayer ministry is lost, robbing those around us of heaven's blessings.

Spirit-filled ministry is lost, robbing the Church of encouragement, exhortation, and edification.

Such terrible loss suffered by so many when the Christian lives in sin.

In Christ,

Ron



"Fellowship with God is lost, grieving His heart.

Priestly prayer ministry is lost, robbing those around us of heaven's blessings.

Spirit-filled ministry is lost, robbing the Church of encouragement, exhortation, and edification."

AMEN, AMEN! When a member of the Body is injured (in sin) the Body will not function properly. The Head requires members to abide in Him and be full of His life for much more than salvation. Great post, Ron.

 2014/1/2 23:15
arkp
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 51


 Re:

by Sidewalk on 2014/1/2 11:18:20

We should and must walk with circumcised hearts and we do as Christians for the most part, we always have.

Where sin abounds grace does much more abound and in Him we are reminded the only way to get to the Father is through His Son -- washed in His blood and having our minds cleansed through His Word. The renewing of our minds, for every thought that tries to rise up against the knowledge of Gods word, shall be held captive unto the obedience of Jesus Christ.

We obtain revelation knowledge through His Spirit the mysteries hidden in his word, and understanding through Theology.

 2014/1/3 0:45Profile





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