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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : once justified, always justified?

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RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
What is the product of faith for those who continue to believe?



I'm not 100% sure what you mean, but I think the answer is "a good report."


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Robert Wurtz II

 2007/5/16 8:29Profile
GraceAlone
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Joined: 2006/8/23
Posts: 232
Orlando, Florida

 Re:

Quote:

dorcas wrote:
GraceAlone said
Quote:
A real conversion is when somebody REPENTS of all thier sin (by the power of God). Turns away from all of it and experiences a radicaly changed life in love for God. If they don't perservere they were not saints. If somebody lives in and practices sin, they are lost.

Isn't this what Ron explained in his last-post-but-one, when he said

'I see many possible steps including repentance and genuine faith as prerequisites of regeneration rather than its consequence'?




You can't have faith without turning to faith.

Repentance: turning from sin to faith in Christ.

There is a turning to Christ that happens when God saves a man. First Conversion resluting in salvation.


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Kristy

 2007/5/16 14:54Profile
whyme
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Joined: 2007/4/3
Posts: 293


 Re:


Ormly asked whether anyone has ever gotten a new heart. Check 1Samuel 10:9. Saul did when he was annointed by Samuel.

 2007/5/16 15:22Profile
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4794


 Re:

Brother Robert wrote:

Quote:
I'm not 100% sure what you mean, but I think the answer is "a good report."



This is true...but this is the outcome. I am pointing to the process of what it means to follow day by day in faith. Brother Ron brought up a good point in another thread about a disciple that is set free by the truth...

John 8:31 Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, “If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed. 32 And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”

John 8:34 Jesus answered them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin. 35 And a slave does not abide in the house forever, but a son abides forever. 36 Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed.

In this section of Scripture we find that to be set free from the bondage of sin, one must continually abide in the word of God. And by abiding, the truth sets one free from the bondage of sin.

How does faith and the learning of the truth set one free from the bondage of sin?

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2007/5/17 0:29Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3699
Ca.

 Re:

"How does faith and the learning of the truth set one free from the bondage of sin?"

Set free by the Word of God, which is Christ in you The Hope of Glory.

John 1:1-4 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

1 Peter 1:19-23 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God. Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the Word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

Who lives and abides in us for ever?

1 Peter 1:24-25 For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

"The Word (logos) liveth and abideth forever"

"this is the word (Rhema) which by (Paul's) gospel is preached unto you."

The Word Himself living and abiding in us forever and the written word speaking of this by Paul's gospel.

Ephesians 1:3-5 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Rom 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

Rom 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

The Mystery: Christ presenting His Body the Body of Christ the Church to His Father and ours, which is by the "Christ In us the Hope of Glory."

Colossians 1:26-28 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:


in Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2007/5/17 1:47Profile
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4794


 Re:

Brother Phillip wrote:


Quote:
Set free by the Word of God, which is Christ in you The Hope of Glory.



For the benefit of other believers, can you testify of your relationship with Him...

How has knowing Him set you free from the corruption of your old man? How has He led you in specific experiences?
How has His Holy Spirit taught you about yourself and about Him?
In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2007/5/17 2:13Profile
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4794


 Re:

Does anyone agree with what Carter Conlon preaches in the posted sermon?

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2007/5/17 2:22Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

I think most 'holiness' folks believe that sanctification can be lost, but Wesley specifically included 'justification' in his letter to Hannah Ball.

In his sermon on [url=http://new.gbgm-umc.org/umhistory/wesley/sermons/45/]The New Birth[/url], Wesley believed that 'in order of thinking' justification preceded regeneration.If any doctrines within the whole compass of Christianity may be properly termed fundamental, they are doubtless these two, -- the doctrine of justification, and that of the new birth: The former relating to that great work which God does for us, in forgiving our sins; the latter, to the great work which God does in us, in renewing our fallen nature. [b]In order of time, neither of these is before the other: in the moment we are justified by the grace of God, through the redemption that is in Jesus, we are also "born of the Spirit;" but in order of thinking, as it is termed, justification precedes the new birth. We first conceive his wrath to be turned away, and then his Spirit to work in our hearts.[/b]His statment then to Hannah Ball that 40% 'lose' justification and sanctification within a year makes me wish I could ask him that straightforward question 'do we lose regeneration and then regain it and then lose it and then... or do we only lose 'justification'?


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Ron Bailey

 2007/5/17 3:24Profile
rookie
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Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4794


 Re:

Brother Ron wrote:

Quote:
In order of time, neither of these is before the other: in the moment we are justified by the grace of God, through the redemption that is in Jesus, we are also "born of the Spirit;" but in order of thinking, as it is termed, justification precedes the new birth. We first conceive his wrath to be turned away, and then his Spirit to work in our hearts.



This reminds me of Romans 5

Rom. 5:1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him. 10 For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

His blood justifies and reconcils us to God, yet we are saved from the wrath of God by His life. Learning from Him of how He teaches us about His life. The things we learn and experience, then change the substance for what we hope for. To have the same desire that motivates Him to glorify His Father in all that He does, to have this desire become our hearts desire, this is all that faith brings to us. This is the grace that changes all...



Quote:
His statment then to Hannah Ball that 40% 'lose' justification and sanctification within a year makes me wish I could ask him that straightforward question 'do we lose regeneration and then regain it and then lose it and then... or do we only lose 'justification'?
Quote:


2Tim. 2:11 This is a faithful saying:
For if we died with Him,
We shall also live with Him.
12 If we endure,
We shall also reign with Him.
If we deny Him,
He also will deny us.
13 If we are faithless,
He remains faithful;
He cannot deny Himself.

I believe this Scripture teaches that He will always wait for us to return because He is faithful. If we deny the Holy Spirit His place in our lives, well then He will say Get away from Me I never knew you.

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2007/5/17 5:47Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Wesley was generally a man of particular logic; he taught it an university. So I find his thinking of justification and regeneration puzzling in the light of his letter to Hannah Ball. If, as he says, justification and regeneration are inseparable in experience what happens to the man who loses his 'justification'? Would that not mean that he lost his regeneration? And how many regenerations would a person be allowed? ;-)


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Ron Bailey

 2007/5/17 7:08Profile





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