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 Re:

Quote:

Mahoney wrote:
Quote:
If I may answer, works do not justify any man's faith. Works simply are a result of a person's faith. A true follower of Christ will show works as a result of faith. Where this gets tricky is that people can manifest works on their own without faith. The true test of faith are works that endure.



Amen! This christian walk is like a marathon, it's not how we start but how we finish. "Better is the end of thing then the beginning thereof"



But what are you running for, Heaven?

 2007/5/14 10:40
PreachParsly
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 Re:

Quote:
If I may answer, works do not justify any man's faith. Works simply are a result of a person's faith. A true follower of Christ will show works as a result of faith. Where this gets tricky is that people can manifest works on their own without faith. The true test of faith are works that endure.

Jesus said to His Disciples in John 15:16, "You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you." (NKJV)

Anyone who does not continue in faith has not hope of heaven.



I think you may have read what Ron said about "justifying faith" wrong. Your 2nd sentence is what I understand to "faith that is justified by works" to mean. In other words, works declare that the faith is true.

When can I ever be assured that I have "true faith?" Only when I see that my works have continued until the end? I don't think I can know that until I die. That doesn't give one much assurance.

EDIT: I'm asking this to (any)one who believes in "perseverance of the saints" in the Calvinist way of thinking.


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Josh Parsley

 2007/5/14 10:48Profile
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 Re:

Quote:
I think you may have read what Ron said about "justifying faith" wrong. Your 2nd sentence is what I understand to "faith that is justified by works" to mean. In other words, works declare that the faith is true.



Enduring works declare that faith is true, temporary works (i.e., that do not endure) declare that faith is not true.

My point is that many false believers can temporarily show works that convince us that their conversion was genuine. It happens all the time. the problem is that they cannot manufacture these works for very long and eventually they “fall away”.

How long does it take someone to give up? Some might give up in a year, some might give up in 5 years, some might give up after 20 years…but the point is they give up.

Look again at Hebrews 10:38, “Now the just shall live by faith; But if anyone draws back, My soul has no pleasure in him.”
Now look at verse 39, “But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul.”

Quote:
When can I ever be assured that I have "true faith?" Only when I see that my works have continued until the end? I don't think I can know that until I die. That doesn't give one much assurance.



Great question. My works will continue, not because I know that I have the strength to endure, but because I know Jesus and He knows me. I have met Jesus and it is Him who sustains me and will present me faultless and blameless before the throne. My assurance is not in myself and my works, my assurance is in Christ.

 2007/5/14 11:14Profile
Psalm73
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Joined: 2007/2/15
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 Re:

On the topic of justification, when you've put the nails to the wall in Christ's hand, he was put asunder and resurrected, that's it.
The same is with sin, but woe unto you that take evil for good and good for evil, that holds an evil covetousnes to his house! (Prophetes)
Let's look at the passage found in Hebrews 10, with much better greek and a pen that is graven in blood.
36 For ye have need of patience, that after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.
37 For yet a very little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry:
38 But the just shall live by faith. And if he withdraw himself, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
39 We are not which with draw ourselves unto damnation, but pertain to faith, for to win our souls (Tyndale 1526)(faithofgod.net vsion)

Hmm, damnation seems to something one would be stuck to, if thou readest Ezekiel 33 without a ravening tongued prophet wickedly causes you to forget your God, full of advoutry and covetous lucre. (Ezekiel 33:31)
Ezekiel33:18 (OnlineBible1537TRC) When the righteous turneth from his righteousness, and doeth the thing that is wicked, he shall die therefore.
19 But if the wicked turn from his wickedness, doing the thing that is lawful and right, he shall live therefore.
20 Yet ye say: The way of the Lord is not equal. O ye house of Israel, I will judge every one of you after his ways.
ANd for defense of the washing of sin and the once sacrfice of Iesus Christ
Heb 7:27 Which needeth not daily (as yonder high priests) to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people’s sins. For that did he at once for all, when he offered up himself:

Amen to the liberal gospel of Paul, that is as hard, straight and difficult for the carnal to pass thorow. Understand, and become ghostly minded, let this minde be in you the which was in Christ Iesu. We eschew anyman that would rebuke us in this abundance

Praise God the everlastynge Lord


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Terry L Merritt

 2007/5/14 12:19Profile
philologos
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 Re:

Quote:
Anyone who does not continue in faith has not hope of heaven.



This is the real point I think. If someone is justified by faith what happens to their justification if they no longer have faith?


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Ron Bailey

 2007/5/14 12:39Profile
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 Re:

Quote:

philologos wrote:
Quote:
Anyone who does not continue in faith has not hope of heaven.



This is the real point I think. If someone is justified by faith what happens to their justification if they no longer have faith?



TO me that is a foolish and unlearned question, did you not read Ezekiel 33? Do you not understand Hebrews 6:4-7?
Galations 3:5-6 (1526N.T) Which ministered to you the spirit, and worketh miracles among you doth he it thorow the deeds of the law? or by preaching of the faith?
6 ¶ Even as Abraham believed God, and it was ascribed to him for righteousness.

Hebrews 11:13 And they all died in faith, and received not the promises: but saw them afar off, and believed them, and saluted them: and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
14 They that say such things, declare that they seek a country.
15 Also if they had been mindful of that country, from whence they came, they had leisure to have returned again.
16 But now they desire a better, that is to say a celestial. Wherefore God is not ashamed of them, even to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.
17 In faith Abraham offered up Isaac, when he was tempted, and he offered him being his only son, in whom he had received the promises:

Hope in that which is seen is not hope, and Faith is a sure confidence of things which are hoped for, and a certainty of things which are not seen

Is thy faith in the revalation of Iesus Christ or is it truly in the works of men?
Shew me thy faith by thy deeds, and I will shew the my fayth by my dedes/


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Terry L Merritt

 2007/5/14 12:53Profile
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 Re:

Quote:
TO me that is a foolish and unlearned question, did you not read Ezekiel 33?


Frequently.


Quote:
Do you not understand Hebrews 6:4-7?


I think I do.


BTW what century do you live in? Your language is going to be very difficult for many of our brethren who don't have 16th century English as a mother tongue.


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Ron Bailey

 2007/5/14 13:12Profile
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 Re:

One of the things to consider as well is that from a Reformed/Calvinistic view, a man's faith is the result of the new birth, and thus a man that is truly born again will persevere with works showing his faith unto the end.

On the other hand, the Arminian belief that man chooses God leads man to believe he must maintain his justification by works, because he initiated his faith and thus he must maintain it.

The question that is most important in all of this is, was the sacrifice of Christ sufficient to justify? Historical Arminians say no, while Calvinists say absolutely. A man trying to justify himslef by his works robs Christ of His place as Saviour, and attempts to set up an idol of righteousness before God.

And yet another point to be careful on is the mixing of justification and sanctification. A man is justified by faith, but sanctification is ongoing through his time in the flesh. We must not fall into the Roman Catholic idea of mixing justification and sanctification so that we say an unsanctified man is an unjustified man. That was one of the points the Reformers fought against, and it would be a shame to put that yoke back upon people.


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patrick heaviside

 2007/5/14 13:15Profile
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 Re:

Quote:
Great question. My works will continue, not because I know that I have the strength to endure, but because I know Jesus and He knows me. I have met Jesus and it is Him who sustains me and will present me faultless and blameless before the throne. My assurance is not in myself and my works, my assurance is in Christ.



Maybe I should have said, "If the evidence of true faith is enduring to the end, can you know you haven't deceived yourself before the end?" Surely those that "departed from the faith" at least thought they were in. We both agree you have to endure to the end, but if it's true that is the proof of ever having real faith then I wouldn't think you couldn't know until the end.


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Josh Parsley

 2007/5/14 13:40Profile
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 Re:

Quote:
Maybe I should have said, "If the evidence of true faith is enduring to the end, can you know you haven't deceived yourself before the end?" Surely those that "departed from the faith" at least thought they were in. We both agree you have to endure to the end, but if it's true that is the proof of ever having real faith then I wouldn't think you could know until the end.



Let me clarify myself, true faith is faith that endures to the end, but the Christian can know they have true faith before the 'end comes'.

How? Through Jesus. Jesus let's us know. For example, I am a Christian and I work, not to earn my justification, but because I am justified. Even though I have not "endured to the end", I have confidence that I will endure to the end because of the inward work of Grace done by Christ.

Are there false believers who are deceived? Certainly. Am I deceiving myself? I don't think so. :-P

 2007/5/14 13:45Profile





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