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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : once justified, always justified?

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philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
KingJimmy on 2007/5/18 3:22:51
The Old Testament saints could not have been the saints they were apart from the work of the Spirit that comes through His indwelling.


I respect your view but I disagree with it.


Quote:
When David cried out in Psalm 51 for God to not take His Holy Spirit from him, this is a cry that we should realize as a potential reality for us as well. For these things happened as examples for us, the Scriptures remind us.


This is one of only three references to the 'holy' Spirit in the Old Testament. (Psa 51:11; Is 63:10-11) The prevailing attribute of the Spirit in the Old Testament is 'power' not 'holiness'. David had seen God take away the Spirit from Saul as a result of his sin. (1Sam 16:14) When Saul lost the Spirit his reign was effectively over too. David knows the enormity of what he has done and pleads with the Lord not to deal with him as he deserves and as he did with Saul. David knows that if he loses his anointing his reign in over. He knows the damage he has done in his sin which is why he goes on to plead with God to 'build the walls of Jerusalem' which David's sin have breached.

Each time the Old Testament uses the phrase Holy Spirit it is in contrast to sin. It is not merely a title but a consciousness that God is different and in stark contrast to the events which give the context.



Quote:
As Ephesians 5 reminds us, we are exhorted to be continually full of the Holy Spirit.


This verse is a call to continual filling it does not imply that the vessel is empty before it is filled. The tenses require that it really ought to be translated 'continue to be filled with the Holy Spirit'.


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Ron Bailey

 2007/5/18 5:27Profile
rookie
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Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4803


 Re:

Brother Ron wrote:

Quote:
This is one of only three references to the 'holy' Spirit in the Old Testament. (Psa 51:11; Is 63:10-11) The prevailing attribute of the Spirit in the Old Testament is 'power' not 'holiness'.



I respect your view, but Scripture teaches otherwise...

Proverbs 2:

6 For the LORD gives wisdom;
From His mouth come knowledge and understanding;
7 He stores up sound wisdom for the upright;
He is a shield to those who walk uprightly;
8 He guards the paths of justice,
And preserves the way of His saints.
9 Then you will understand righteousness and justice,
Equity and every good path.
10 When wisdom enters your heart,
And knowledge is pleasant to your soul,
11 Discretion will preserve you;
Understanding will keep you,


Proverbs 3:

11 My son, do not despise the chastening of the LORD,
Nor detest His correction;
12 For whom the LORD loves He corrects,
Just as a father the son in whom he delights.
13 Happy is the man who finds wisdom,
And the man who gains understanding;
14 For her proceeds are better than the profits of silver,
And her gain than fine gold.
15 She is more precious than rubies,
And all the things you may desire cannot compare with her.
16 Length of days is in her right hand,
In her left hand riches and honor.
17 Her ways are ways of pleasantness,
And all her paths are peace.
18 She is a tree of life to those who take hold of her,
And happy are all who retain her.


How does God give wisdom to men?

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2007/5/18 6:31Profile
whyme
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Joined: 2007/4/3
Posts: 293


 Re:

Brother Ron, Weren't John the Baptist and his father Zechariah Old Testament saints ( John the Baptist being the last of the Old Testament prophets ) and doesn't the Bible make clear they were filled with the Spirit? While I'm not sure this answers anything, it seems that the postulation that the Holy Spirit could only fill a person after Jesus was resurrected would not be entirely justified as some kind of rule.

 2007/5/18 7:17Profile
ZekeO
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Joined: 2004/7/4
Posts: 1014
Pietermaritzburg, South Africa

 Re:

Quote:

whyme wrote:
Brother Ron, Weren't John the Baptist and his father Zechariah Old Testament saints ( John the Baptist being the last of the Old Testament prophets ) and doesn't the Bible make clear they were filled with the Spirit? While I'm not sure this answers anything, it seems that the postulation that the Holy Spirit could only fill a person after Jesus was resurrected would not be entirely justified as some kind of rule.


This is true.

I have had a look at the concordance to where the word 'filled' is used and it is always in reference in God coming in/over a person. So the picture is God comes to man.

The word baptism/baptized however which the NT talks about regarding the Spirit is more often than not associated with a coming together of man and God. I am refferring specifically to the scriptures dealing with the Spirit. SO the picture is that God and man come together in union.

To maybe explain this better Jesus says in John 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

It is not so much Christ in me, but that I am now in Christ in a union/relationship. That is the difference I think.


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Zeke Oosthuis

 2007/5/18 7:53Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
Brother Ron, Weren't John the Baptist and his father Zechariah Old Testament saints ( John the Baptist being the last of the Old Testament prophets ) and doesn't the Bible make clear they were filled with the Spirit?


Yes.

Did someone say that Old Testament saints could not be filled with the Spirit? I certainly didn't.


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Ron Bailey

 2007/5/18 8:45Profile
PassingThru
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Joined: 2005/5/7
Posts: 175


 Re:

Quote:

So how can God say He 'seals' us with His Spirit if it can be taken away? What kind of 'seal' is that?



I think you are thinking of a sealed pipe, and not a sealed promise. The English word seal has plenty of meanings, but I think in this context it is a mark of the authenticity of the promise of salvation, similar to a promissory note sealed with a royal seal.

The royal seal represents the proves the authenticity of the document and the authority that support it, but doesn't make the document indestructible.

A cheque represents money, but if you deliberately deface it, it becomes worthless. It's value is only maintained as long as you conserve it.

Another example would be the seal on the Lion's den. This was probably something like a wax mark without a lot of mechanical strength. Nearly any person could have broke it, however to do so would be to defy the king's authority and suffer the consequences. The strength of this type of seal is not in itself, but in what it represents.

I'm not saying the Holy Spirit is without power, but I think the context of the verse is talking of the Holy Spirit's function as a token to the power of Christ to save.

PassingThru

 2007/5/18 9:38Profile
whyme
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Joined: 2007/4/3
Posts: 293


 Re:

Ron,

I guess my point about the reference to John's being filled with the Holy Spirit is that it is not necessarily, by Scripture, restricted to power but could very well include holiness as well. I see your point with regard to Saul and David but it doesn't seem to extend to John the Baptist who was filled at birth.

Quote:

So how can God say He 'seals' us with His Spirit if it can be taken away? What kind of 'seal' is that?



I think you are thinking of a sealed pipe, and not a sealed promise. The English word seal has plenty of meanings, but I think in this context it is a mark of the authenticity of the promise of salvation, similar to a promissory note sealed with a royal seal.

The royal seal represents the proves the authenticity of the document and the authority that support it, but doesn't make the document indestructible.

A cheque represents money, but if you deliberately deface it, it becomes worthless. It's value is only maintained as long as you conserve it.

Another example would be the seal on the Lion's den. This was probably something like a wax mark without a lot of mechanical strength. Nearly any person could have broke it, however to do so would be to defy the king's authority and suffer the consequences. The strength of this type of seal is not in itself, but in what it represents.

I'm not saying the Holy Spirit is without power, but I think the context of the verse is talking of the Holy Spirit's function as a token to the power of Christ to save.

PassingThru

 2007/5/18 9:44Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
whyme on 2007/5/18 14:44:53
I guess my point about the reference to John's being filled with the Holy Spirit is that it is not necessarily, by Scripture, restricted to power but could very well include holiness as well. I see your point with regard to Saul and David but it doesn't seem to extend to John the Baptist who was filled at birth.


John was filled from his birth (or from his mother's womb which might even indicate earlier) which in some people's understanding would have to mean that he was born regenerate or even that he was born again before he was born the first time! :-o To me this makes it very clear that a person does not need to be born-again in order to be filled with the Spirit

This was a unique equipping of the Spirit for a unique role as the Voice and herald of the Messenger of the Covenant. “Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.” (Malachi 3:1 KJVS)John was indeed, the greatest born of woman, nevertheless he that is least in the Kingdom of God is greater than John. This clearly is not speaking of the effectiveness of ministry but of some other measure of 'greatness'.


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Ron Bailey

 2007/5/18 18:06Profile
Nile
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Joined: 2007/3/28
Posts: 403
Raleigh, NC

 Re:

Quote:
To me this makes it very clear that a person does not need to be born-again in order to be filled with the Spirit



I agree. Look at the story of Balaam, the pagan prophet. The Spirit of the God "came upon him" which is similar, if not the same, as being filled with the Spirit:

Numbers: 24
1 Now when Balaam saw that it pleased the LORD to bless Israel, he did not go as at other times, to seek to use sorcery, but he set his face toward the wilderness. 2 And Balaam raised his eyes, and saw Israel encamped according to their tribes; [b]and the Spirit of God came upon him.[/b]


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Matthew Miskiewicz

 2007/5/18 19:15Profile
JaySaved
Member



Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131
Kentucky

 Re:

Quote:
This clearly is not speaking of the effectiveness of ministry but of some other measure of 'greatness'.



Exactly.

 2007/5/18 19:27Profile





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