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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : once justified, always justified?

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RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
For most of us it's a matter of just reading the word of God, not a matter of trying to understand it, but just reading it and letting God pour some "miracle grow" on that seed to cause it grow in our lives.



Heb 4:1-2

Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.

2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, [u]not being mixed with faith[/u] in them that heard it.

I think of the importance of the Holy Spirit quickening the word of God to us. More than the logos- but the rhema. But even that is not enough to effect change. There is yet a missing element; [i]faith[/i]. The word has to be mixed with faith or it will not profit. Faith is our contribution.





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Robert Wurtz II

 2007/5/17 21:40Profile
KingJimmy
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Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
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 Re:

Quote:

So it is incorrect to equate the working of the Holy Spirit in Psalm 51 (concerning David) and the working of the Holy Spirit within you and me.



I disagree. Romans teaches that one who is truly a Jew must be a Jew inwardly, receiving a circumcision that is of the heart by the Spirit. This teaching transcends dispensations. The Old Testament saints who were righteous in the sight of God had this inward work done in them as well. Such is why Jesus marveled that teachers like Nicodemus didn't understand the necessity for the new birth, as these things were taught all in the Law and prophets. The Old Testament saints could not have been the saints they were apart from the work of the Spirit that comes through His indwelling.

When David cried out in Psalm 51 for God to not take His Holy Spirit from him, this is a cry that we should realize as a potential reality for us as well. For these things happened as examples for us, the Scriptures remind us. As Ephesians 5 reminds us, we are exhorted to be continually full of the Holy Spirit. Thus, it is clear from Scripture that the presence of the Spirit in our lives as a believer can fade. For we would not need to seek to be continually full of the Spirit if we were always full of the Spirit.

And indeed, if we are not diligent in our faith to remain full of the Spirit, there will come a time when we might find ourselves lacking faith altogether, even having abandoned it. And in such times we have the horrible vision of Ezekiel to remind us that there is a time in which the Spirit of God departs from the very temple where He caused His name to dwell. Indeed, the prophets reminded Israel time and time again that the "assurance" that they had was a false one, and that God could indeed abandon them and give them over to destruction.

These things were written for our instruction, as examples for us.


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Jimmy H

 2007/5/17 22:22Profile
rookie
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Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4803


 Re:

Brother Jay asked:

Quote:
So how can God say He 'seals' us with His Spirit if it can be taken away? What kind of 'seal' is that?



I see it as David knew that God's Holy Spirit was with him. The presence of the Holy Spirit was David's asssurance of the promise God gave to him. The Holy Spirit is the down payment for the promised redemption. The Holy Spirit is our seal, in that, we hear His counsel, His commands, His enabling for the work He has for us to do.

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2007/5/18 1:11Profile
rookie
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Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4803


 Re:

Brother Robert wrote:

Quote:
The word has to be mixed with faith or it will not profit. Faith is our contribution.




John 14:21 He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him.”

Does this verse define what you have stated above?

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2007/5/18 1:19Profile
Christinyou
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Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3707
Ca.

 Re:

If loosing ones salvation is up to the individual, then gaining ones salvation is up to the individual also.

I don't think so.

1 Corinthians 1:29-31 That no flesh should glory in His presence. But of Him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

It is God's glory that we are redeemed. It is God's glory that we are in righteous justification where God has put us in Christ Jesus and Christ Jesus in us. It is God's glory that Holy Spirit wisdom is made unto us. It is God's Glory that the Christ Person is sanctified in Christ life.

In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2007/5/18 1:21Profile
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 Re:

Sis wrote:

Quote:
We repent again, and again the ground is ready for seed. Sometimes our lives become a "sin - repent" for quite awhile until the day comes when our ground is able to receive seed and keep it. It's like a woman who keeps having miscarriages, but finally she does retain the seed and thus able to give birth.



In the parable of the sower, we all know that the seed is the word of God. We know that it is planted once. We know that there are those who do not perservere. But really what is the main focus of this parable?

I think we get so absorbed by this "born from above" discusssion, we get so absorbed by looking for "experiences" that quicken our hearts, we get so absorbed looking for signs and wonders that confirm to us that we are His children, yet what is the focus of the parable of the sower?

It is not about us is it. It is about glorifying Him.

Matt. 13:23 But he who received seed on the good ground is he who hears the word and understands it, who indeed bears fruit and produces: some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.”

John 4:36 And he who reaps receives wages, and gathers fruit for eternal life, that both he who sows and he who reaps may rejoice together.

John 15:2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.

John 15:4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.

John 15:5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.

John 15:8 By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; so you will be My disciples.

Do you see that the focus of Scripture is not about us but about the work of the Holy Spirit reaping a harvest of souls as the reward for our Savior's sacrifice.

Rev. 5:11 Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne, the living creatures, and the elders; and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands, 12 saying with a loud voice:
“Worthy is the Lamb who was slain
To receive power and riches and wisdom,
And strength and honor and glory and blessing!”

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2007/5/18 1:37Profile
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Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4803


 Re:

Brother Phillip wrote:

Quote:
If loosing ones salvation is up to the individual, then gaining ones salvation is up to the individual also.



This is not the question at all is it. The real question is do we say yes to the Holy Spirit's commands? That is the only way that Christ manifests Himself to those who believe onto salvation.

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2007/5/18 1:41Profile
RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
ohn 14:21 He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him.”

Does this verse define what you have stated above?




An interesting discovery concerning Israel:


Hebrews 3:

And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who were [u]disobedient?[/u] (NASB)

And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that were [u]disobedient?[/u] (ASV)

And to whom did he make an oath that they might not come into his rest? was it not to those who went [u]against his orders?[/u] (BBE)

And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that [u]believed not?[/u] (KJV)


There seems to be a parallel between obedience and faith.

Rom 10:16-17

But they have not all [u]obeyed[/u] the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath [u]believed[/u] our report?

17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

I read the 16th verse to be saying, "If they had really believed they would have obeyed." I think that obedience is very close to worship because of the submission involved. Resisting the Holy Ghost is refusal to submit or 'yield' ourselves to unto God. Whether or not we obey is not always based upon our knowledge of the facts. Whether or not we believe is not based on the assent of of mind to the facts in the case. One can 'mis-weigh' the evidence and rule incorrectly in a case. This is why Romans tells us that they did all 'hear', but they did not all obey. Everyone basically has the same eveidence on a basic level. Some believe and obey and some do not. Why is that?

Answer? They did not [u]want[/u] to believe. Why? Because they did not like the direction that 'belief' would ultimately take their life. They wanted to do their own thing without God superintending their life. So what is the convenient thing to do? Come up with a way to disregard the facts (evidence). Ignore God. Intentionally leave Him out of their reckoning. This is a process that ultimately shuts the light out of the person's life until they declare there is [u]no[/u] God. Why? They love darkness because their deeds are evil. What is darkness? It is the [i]absence[/i] of light. What is the darkness whereof we speak? It is the absence of God. Men 'love' the absence of God. And some will get what they 'love' for all eternity. Hell is the absence of God. Those who hate the light feel comfortable in the absence of God.

Can a plant grow in darkness? Hence; the 'fool' has said in his heart their is no God (Psalm 14:1a). The root word in the Hebrew is [i]nebal[/i] and it means 'to wilt'. This is what plants do in the absence of light. This is why the second part of the verse says they are 'corrupt'. This Hebrew word means 'to decay'. The consequence of this is found in the OT first use of the word and it is also translated 'corrupt':

Gen 6:11

The earth also was [u]corrupt[/u] before God, and the earth was filled with violence.
KJV


This is a world that 'loved' the absence of God.





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Robert Wurtz II

 2007/5/18 3:41Profile
RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
If loosing ones salvation is up to the individual, then gaining ones salvation is up to the individual also.



This idea I'm afraid is more philosophy than scripture. God is glorified in salvation as it is of faith that it might be by grace. God has taken the initiative and made a way; but man has to respond rightly to God. This is the constant message of scripture. Choose [u]YE[/u] this day...

Faith and obedience are so closely linked that they are nearly impossible to separate. I don't think 'works' in the Ephesians 2 sense is the same as faith [i]that works[/i] (James 2). How do we respond to the Holy Spirit? Do we resist? Do we submit? The way of the transgressor is hard. Resisting being apprehended of Christ (Phil 3) is said to be hard, i.e. it is 'hard' for thee to kick against the pricks (goads Acts 9:5).

Goads were sharp sticks or thorns that were used by farmers on their plows to steer the animal to the left or right. An arm went out into either side of the animal and the goad could be thrust into the side as a sort of power steering. The pain caused the animal to seek relief by going the appropriate direction. This is an old bible concept. We read in Judges 1:14:

And it came to pass, when she came to him, that [u]she moved him[/u] to ask of her father a field: and she lighted from off her ass; and Caleb said unto her, What wilt thou?


[u]She moved him[/u] is the Hebrew word [i]cuwth[/i] (sooth) and it means to 'prick'. There is a good side and a bad side to this concept. God is said to have 'moved' David or that He at times would 'stir up' folk to do certain things. However, there is a bad way the word is used also and it can be translated to entice or seduce. This is how the word is mainly used. So we see then that God will 'prod' a person towards His will, but that prodding can still be resisted just like being seduced and enticed can be resisted.

The point is, man has to make the decision to either sin or obey. They are being prodded in both directions. The enemy uses means to 'prick' folk towards disobedience. God uses means to 'prick' men towards Himself. With all this 'persuading' and 'prodding' going on it is up to man to choose- will I submit to God and resist the devil or will I resist the Holy Ghost and submit to the enemy? It is your choice! Choose [u]YE[/u] this day whom you will serve.


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Robert Wurtz II

 2007/5/18 4:24Profile
RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
KingJimmy: Romans teaches that one who is truly a Jew must be a Jew inwardly, receiving a circumcision that is of the heart by the Spirit. This teaching transcends dispensations. The Old Testament saints who were righteous in the sight of God had this inward work done in them as well.



Although it is true that there was a certain work that God performed in the hearts of men since the beginning- I would make a clear distinction between the world post Acts 2 and the world prior. Men themselves post Acts 2 would be the house of God. Jacob was the first to use the term 'house of God' when he dreamed of the staircase into heaven. This is none other the the house of God- this is the gate of heaven. Our Lord referred to Jacob's experience saying angels would ascend and descend on Him also. When He walked the earth HE was the house of God. He was and is the 'door' of Heaven. When He ascended into Heaven the Church became the house of God as the Holy Spirit came in filled the house or believers individually. Each is a lively stone. This had never been before.

This was a whole new level of the presence of God in men. They used to go to the Temple- now they were the Temple. They used to be forbidden from going into the Holiest of all- now that same God who dwelled in the thick darkness behind the vail dwells in us. If we ever got our head around this fact we would take the world for Christ. The fire that sat over the Tabernacle came and rested over those who were filled symbolizing God leading men like He led the children of Israel (Acts 2). This is a life led of the Spirit. This is a holy priesthood energized to offer up spiritual sacrifices to the Lord.

Circumcision of the heart dates at least back to Abraham. I believe true circumcision of the heart is God dealing with the Sin issue (sin nature). Abraham believed God- and obeyed while the rest of the world were fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind. It seems Abraham was willing to submit to God and resist the lusts of the flesh. He was 'circumcised' of his flesh. Jesus told the people if they were children of Abraham they would have done the works of Abraham. What did he do? He obeyed in faith. What was the sign given? Circumcision of the foreskin of his flesh. The word just means 'to cut'. But it began in the heart.

Deut 10:16

Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.
KJV

There is a similar passage in Jeremiah 4:4. Here we read that man must do the job himself- so in a sense it is man's responsibility. In Deut 30:6 God said He would do the job. Again, I see this as merely cooperating with God in His working. If I told my son to get his hair cut I surely would not mean for him to do it? The directive was to the intent that he go to the barber shop. God says to circumcise our hearts- but I think we have to come to Him for it. This is played out in its ultimate sense in regeneration. As wonderful as was all the OT Saints enjoyed- I still believe the New Testament saints know the working of the Holy Spirit in a fuller way than at any time in history.


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Robert Wurtz II

 2007/5/18 4:54Profile





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