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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : once justified, always justified?

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JaySaved
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Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131
Kentucky

 Re:

Quote:
Psalm 51:11 Do not cast me away from Your presence And do not take Your Holy Spirit from me.



Edit for rephrasing: I disagree with this verse being used in this context, the Bible is clear that the working of the Spirit in the New Covenant is different than in the Old Covenant.

See John 16.

Edit: Different in that a change occurred once Jesus became glorified. Once Jesus ascended, He sent down the Holy Spirit to be the Counselor/Comforter. Obviously a change had occurred.

 2007/5/17 11:44Profile
KingJimmy
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Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

Quote:

So how can God say He 'seals' us with His Spirit if it can be taken away? What kind of 'seal' is that?



The common theology of Jeremiah's day, as we see quite well in classic passages such as Jeremiah 7, was that "No harm will come upon us, for we confidence that since God has put His name upon this temple, that this temple shall stand! After all God is in this place!" And God made it quite clear through the Babylonians that this theology was bunk.

*Edit* And as Scripture reminds us, these things happened as examples for us, upon whom the end of the ages have come.


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Jimmy H

 2007/5/17 13:48Profile
KingJimmy
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Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

Quote:

Edit for rephrasing: I disagree with this verse being used in this context, the Bible is clear that the working of the Spirit in the New Covenant is different than in the Old Covenant.

See John 16.



I agree there is a difference in the testaments in regard to the activity of the Spirit. However (and without attempting to open a can of worms), I believe that Old Testaments saints had the same indwelling of the Spirit that we as believers have today by faith. For just as redemption was provided to them by faith in Christ, so were the benefits of that saving faith available to them as well. The difference between the dispensations in regard to the administration of the Holy Spirit has to do not with the salvific work of the Spirit, but rather the outpouring of the Spirit in regards to equipping for ministry that would be provided for all.


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Jimmy H

 2007/5/17 13:54Profile
KingJimmy
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Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

I think John 15 is a great picture of the activity of the Spirit in regard to these things. It's simply about abiding in the life of the vine. Simply put, if you are not abiding in the vine, you are not participating in the life of the Spirit. But if you are abiding in the vine, you are participating in the life of the Spirit, and will bear fruit in keeping with that participation.


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Jimmy H

 2007/5/17 13:57Profile









 Re:

Quote:
by KingJimmy on 2007/5/17 13:57:11 I think John 15 is a great picture of the activity of the Spirit in regard to these things. It's simply about abiding in the life of the vine. Simply put, if you are not abiding in the vine, you are not participating in the life of the Spirit. But if you are abiding in the vine, you are participating in the life of the Spirit, and will bear fruit in keeping with that participation



saints, i am sorry to repeat and harp about this again and again, but as i said somewhere in this thread previously (like 10 pages ago), the issue was settled for me long ago, but confirmed after i heard Roberts talk about the Vine(i think i had the link posted on previous post in this thread) it amazes me how the Spirit works, for it is exactly what Jimmy presents above that Roberts expounds upon. if you don't hear it, at least for the sake of your own salvation and justification, think about Judas.

 2007/5/17 15:24
JaySaved
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Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131
Kentucky

 Re:

KingJimmy, if you are right about the Spirit, then why did Jesus say, "I tell you, among those born of women none is greater than John. Yet the one who is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he." (John 7:28 ESV)

 2007/5/17 19:46Profile
KingJimmy
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Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

Jay,

Whatever interpretation one might give to this passage, one cannot say that Jesus is establishing a dichotomy between John and the disciples that have since been ushered into the kingdom based on some notion of the Spirit's future outpouring in Acts 2. For Jesus is talking about people present during His very ministry who are taking the kingdom by force. Chronologically speaking, this is still before that outpouring. So, to assert that it is the issue of the Spirit that Jesus uses to drive a wedge between John and the newly converted citizens of the kingdom of heaven, would be incorrect.

I think this passage can be better understood in the frequent saying of Christ, that the first shall be last and that the last shall be first.




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Jimmy H

 2007/5/17 20:49Profile









 Re: once justified, always justified?

God Bless You Beloved:

Philogos original question

Quote:
Hence my question; once justified, always justified?

I never believed in once saved always saved, nor once justified always justified. And it seems that the LORD has driven that home to me today on another verse that I have never understood until today. I didn't get it from man's perspective, though that doesn't mean that it's always wrong.

Consider Ron's question in the light of this verse:
Quote:
1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

I had something written here that I simply cannot share with this open forum. The LORD put this in my heart as I was mediating on His word while riding home on the bus. I was writing it here and I had to stop and take in what I was writing down, for it caused me to be in awe and yet the fear of God gripped me, and I believe that we have received some serious false teaching regarding what it really means to be truly born again. As I was writing I thought that I cannot share this right now, I have to use knowledge to ease this into the main stream of our thinking in order to fully grasp what is being said. It will cause us to drop to our knees. Let me share something with you that the LORD did show me and it has to with the other but I'll give this because this is good to hear regardless. (forgive me, this has really shook me up)

Everytime we repent, the ground of our soul is now ready to receive seed. Everytime we are offended because of the Word, the seed has been taken from that ground. We repent again, and again the ground is ready for seed. Sometimes our lives become a "sin - repent" for quite awhile until the day comes when our ground is able to receive seed and keep it. It's like a woman who keeps having miscarriages, but finally she does retain the seed and thus able to give birth. For most of us it's a matter of just reading the word of God, not a matter of trying to understand it, but just reading it and letting God pour some "miracle grow" on that seed to cause it grow in our lives.

The power and purposes of God are bigger than our puny understandings of what we think the word of God is saying.

God Bless

 2007/5/17 20:54
JaySaved
Member



Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131
Kentucky

 Re:

From Robertson's Word Pictures:

Mat 11:11 -
He that is but little (ho mikroteros). The Authorized Version here has it better, “he that is least.” The article with the comparative is a growing idiom in the vernacular Koiné for the superlative as in the modern Greek it is the only idiom for the superlative (Robertson, Grammar of the Greek N.T., p. 668). The papyri and inscriptions show the same construction. The paradox of Jesus has puzzled many. He surely means that John is greater (meizōn) than all others in character, but that the least in the kingdom of heaven surpasses him in privilege. John is the end of one age, “until John” (Mat_11:14), and the beginning of the new era. All those that come after John stand upon his shoulders. John is the mountain peak between the old and the new.

Matthew 11:13-14, "For all the Prophets and the Law prophesied until John, and if you are willing to accept it, he is Elijah who is to come."

As Robertson said, John the Baptist marked the ending of an 'age'...call it a dispensation if you wish. But the point is that John marked the end. After John came Jesus and His ministry, then the disciples.

John 15 speaks of a new, better working of the Holy Spirit once Jesus was glorified. So it is incorrect to equate the working of the Holy Spirit in Psalm 51 (concerning David) and the working of the Holy Spirit within you and me.

 2007/5/17 21:07Profile









 Re:

never mind.... i won't comment from now on on this topic

 2007/5/17 21:19





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