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Sree
Member



Joined: 2011/8/20
Posts: 1700


 Re:

Quote:

How can you be so certain that homosexuality cannot have a genetic component to it?



I am not ignorant of science. I am an engineer and make my living using science and technology. So here is my argument on Homosexuality cannot have a genetic component to it.

There are eunuchs who are born without proper sexual potential (Matt 19-12). But consider a man who was created by God with clear potential to have sexual relationship with a women. He has all physical capabilities to unite with a women and can produce children. Now to this man I do not believe God will put a gene in him that will prevent him to use this distinctive male organs of him (created to unite with a female) to be used to unite with a male. If so then it is clear waste of resource. It is clearly against creationists arguments of intelligent design where we say that every living thing is intelligently designed by a creator.

Also it is very harsh to explain a God who created man with sexual interest towards another man and then ask him not to unite with man because it is labeled as sin.

Science has not come up with a gene for Homosexuality, they are just studying the effect of genes for sexual orientation. Let them come up with a definite proof. As far as I know science stills says that combination of genetic, hormonal and social factors determine sexual orientation.

Quote:

Once again, I am not sure how you are coming to make such a strong distinction between homosexuality and all other sins. Are not all sins lies at the core?



I think this is the fundamental difference between us. I believe we cannot see homosexuality as other sins IF WE AGREE THAT HOMOSEXUALITY IS GENETIC. If it is due to social factors then we can compare Homosexuality with other sins. For example Lies, addiction to pornography etc are not genetic things. They just come to us naturally through the fallen Adamic nature. But it is not something that we are made to do. That is we are not made to watch Pornography, we are not made to lie, we are not made to lust. Infact we are all made with a conscience that prevents us from doing this, but along with this conscience we have a flesh that is always willing to go against this conscience. Now a Man's attraction to opposite sex is inbuilt into him that makes him produce children uniting with his wife. If we say Homosexuality is also inbuilt then we cannot ask someone to forsake this God given desire and unite with a women if needed. It is equal to asking a non Homosexual male to sleep with a man, which is disgusting to him.

I agree with your explanation for gradual deliverance of certain sins and miraculous deliverance of some. I have experienced both and know people who had both as well. Some here in SI will not agree with us. I believe we are Biblical.


_________________
Sreeram

 2013/12/5 2:10Profile
DEADn
Member



Joined: 2011/1/12
Posts: 1357
Lakeland FL

 Re:

I am reading everyone's input very careful and slowly because you have all written ALOT.

Through it I couldn't help but think of high profile Christians who have 'fallen' into homosexuality and saying they were always that way. One shocker for me was Ray Boltz and seeing how much he has changed.

Usually, when a Christian 'falls' away it is because of some doctrinal issue or maybe some adultery that ended when exposed. In Ray Boltz case it doesn't seem to be that way and he went the way that he truly was inside and yet he still sings Christian songs. Does he become a heretic because of the homosexuality despite Christianity?

Beyond this I tend to see, seemingly spiritually, that there is an very intricate web of lies being spun here in the heavenlies around homosexuality. There is a personal which, as it grows, becomes more vocal and turns more political all the way in the hidden something is going on that is very deceptive.

I see something but I can't quite connect all the dots to show what is truly going on with the homosexual move in the world today.

John


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John

 2013/12/5 9:10Profile









 Re:

I know you're looking for an answer. Here is a video series from a man in spiritual warfare counseling. a very nice, merciful man I talked with once.

Jim Logan - Spiritual Warfare - The Battle - Part 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JPHVLdT35_4

8 parts total

hope this helps

 2013/12/5 11:25
tbsounde2
Member



Joined: 2009/2/11
Posts: 179
Los Angeles, CA

 Re:

Hi Sree,

Once again I will try to break down your reply into segments to make things easier:

"I am not ignorant of science. I am an engineer and make my living using science and technology. So here is my argument on Homosexuality cannot have a genetic component to it."

That is wonderful and I am sure that you are using such a blessing and gift to advance the kingdom of God! We definitely have a great need for faithful believers in science and academics to bring the light of Christ to the so called "intellectuals."! I am also in the field of science myself, just got my PhD in Cellular & Molecular Pathology from UCLA 3 months ago :)



"There are eunuchs who are born without proper sexual potential (Matt 19-12). But consider a man who was created by God with clear potential to have sexual relationship with a women. He has all physical capabilities to unite with a women and can produce children. Now to this man I do not believe God will put a gene in him that will prevent him to use this distinctive male organs of him (created to unite with a female) to be used to unite with a male. If so then it is clear waste of resource. It is clearly against creationists arguments of intelligent design where we say that every living thing is intelligently designed by a creator."

I feel a bit of clarification will help with this one. Scientists are not trying to look for a homosexual gene per se, but try to identify genetic factors that can contribute to homosexuality. They are not trying to look for some gene that homosexuals have that heterosexuals do not, as it would be more of a pleotropic effect, in that multiple genes would most likely be involved. These multiple genes would be present in all human beings, but somewhat mutated or altered in function compared to other people. So why do I bring this up? Because the idea that you presented of "God putting a homosexual gene into a person" is an irrelevant point if the effect (homosexuality) was caused by normal genes we all have being effected and altered in their function by mutations or epigenetic changes (a very interesting topic of research that you might want to look into - kind of explains Exodus when God says that He will visit the sins of the fathers to the 3rd and 4th generations - I can also explain more on the forum if people are interested). Now, as it is absolutely clear that a myriad of genetic and epigenetic aberrations are known to cause all sorts of malformations and disease (clearly due to the fact that we are living in a fallen world), it is not much of a logical jump to say that homosexuality or rather a stronger tendency towards is can be attributed in like fashion to different genetic and epigenetic aberrations.



"Also it is very harsh to explain a God who created man with sexual interest towards another man and then ask him not to unite with man because it is labeled as sin."

Coming back to my argument from my previous reply; we are all born sinners (something that God did not intend or want but a clear and present reality), is it wrong for me to tell people that they shouldn't sin?

Also, what about people who are born as hermaphrodites; born with both male and female sex organs? How do you explain that? Clearly this individual is born with an ambiguous gender and this gender ambiguity clearly due to GENETIC and EPIGENETIC aberrations.



"Science has not come up with a gene for Homosexuality, they are just studying the effect of genes for sexual orientation. Let them come up with a definite proof. As far as I know science stills says that combination of genetic, hormonal and social factors determine sexual orientation."

Once again, it is the media that oversimplifies things. Scientists are not looking for some "new gene" that normal people don't have but are looking for genes that we all have which are not working properly that contributes to homosexuality it certain but not individuals.




"I think this is the fundamental difference between us. I believe we cannot see homosexuality as other sins IF WE AGREE THAT HOMOSEXUALITY IS GENETIC. If it is due to social factors then we can compare Homosexuality with other sins. For example Lies, addiction to pornography etc are not genetic things. They just come to us naturally through the fallen Adamic nature. But it is not something that we are made to do."

The fallen Adamic nature encompasses all of our being: the flesh, the soul, the spirit. Sin and death (or dying) is not only a matter of the mind, but a matter of the spirit, as well as the flesh (our physical body made up of trillions of cells that each have thousands of genes). Kids don't lie because they are taught, they do it because they are fallen, sinful people from birth with a corrupted body, soul, and spirit.

As I mentioned before, it has been shown that mothers who use drugs and alcohol can pass the addiction onto their unborn fetus (epigenetics). In this same logic, it is very reasonable to think that this is also possible with homosexuality, not that if the mother is homosexual that it will be passed on but that things can happen physiologically to the mother whether through life decisions, health, etc. that can alter the hormones, etc. of the fetus in such a way that predisposes them to homosexuality.

I am a male, therefore I have testosterone raging through my body. Testosterone is the primary hormone that makes me a male and is a big factor that contributes to my desire for women. God intended this to be something good, but it is my fallen nature that turns this good thing into sin through lust, etc. Although I am not born lusting per se, I am predisposed to lust because I am a healthy, testosterone pumping male.


_________________
Will

 2013/12/5 22:02Profile
ADisciple
Member



Joined: 2007/2/3
Posts: 835
Alberta, Canada

 Re:

Where I am on this to date is as follows.

I do think that it’s likely that certain people have a propensity toward homosexuality from birth, but I don’t accept that it is God who has made them so.

The homosexuals I know love children. It would have to be—excuse me for saying this—a malicious God who puts in people a love for children and at the same time deprives them of the desire for the only kind of relationship that can bring forth children.

So it is not God who has made them that way. Nevertheless, it seems to me that many homosexuals likely have a propensity from birth that leaves them open to this temptation.

(By the way, Sree, you need to rethink your statement that homosexuality is the result of a bad upbringing. I know homosexuals who have been brought up in loving homes.)

So—as I said, this is how I see things in the present measure of light that I have—there are two contributing factors to the massive tide of homosexuality that has engulfed our world.

1. God did not make them that way; it is sin in the individual human heart. But it is compounded by this:
2. On a very large scale in our day, men (I mean men and women) are “worshipping and serving the creature more than the Creator,” and ultimately saying, “We want nothing to do with God; get Him out of our very thoughts” (Rom. 1:24-28). And so as a result (and it is frightening) God has lifted restraint in our day and, in a very massive way, given men over to this. And because of the general weakness of “the church” (I am generalizing) and its inability to resist this onslaught, the tsunami has engulfed even many of the homes of the righteous.

I notice, by the way, that in the two places in the Old Testament where homosexuality was rampant, it was because of the apostate state of things, and the weak testimony of the righteous. One was in Sodom where Lot’s testimony was very weak, and the other in the days of the Judges—a passage of Scripture that is too horrific even to read. It is sandwiched between two statements that “in those days there was no king in Israel; every man did what was right in his own eyes.” The same in our day. The churches are weak; apostasy is rampant.

So, what is the answer? A strong Testimony that puts a stop to apostasy. This is the answer, as Paul shows us in 1 Corinthians Ch. 6. He gives a list (it is not comprehensive) of those who will not inherit the kingdom of God. Homosexuals are on the list. Then he says this:

“And such WERE some of you. But ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the Name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God” (1 Cor. 6.11).

So, God has the answer! He has the provision to justify and cleanse. “The Name of the Lord Jesus, and the Spirit of our God.” I am convinced that it is the general lack of this in the churches that, if not the cause, is the problem that leaves us deprived of the solution. God has the The Answer to this immense flood of darkness... and I believe He has it for us...if we will get seeking! I know it’s grown to huge proportion. But God is far, far greater, and has The Answer—not only the Name of the Lord Jesus, but (underline this) the power of the Spirit of our God. Oh, how deeply we need to see this in our day! The cleansing power of the Spirit. We (I know I am generalizing again) have fallen so far from this. Never mind the homosexuals. It is WE who need to turn to the Lord! Oh to see the broken and the contrite heart in the churches, and a great cry to give the Spirit of the Lord His lordship in our midst! Oh to see a different kind of tsunami in our world! “O now I see the cleansing wave, the Fountain deep and wide; Jesus my Lord, might to save, points to His wounded side...”


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Allan Halton

 2013/12/5 23:47Profile
Sree
Member



Joined: 2011/8/20
Posts: 1700


 Re:

Quote:

By the way, Sree, you need to rethink your statement that homosexuality is the result of a bad upbringing. I know homosexuals who have been brought up in loving homes.



I am not saying single parenting is the only reason, but it is a major reason. There are Homosexuals who came from a loving family where both parents are loving. But here the external influence of other homosexuals or Child abuse at very young age, can cause it.

Your argument is confusing because you are saying God did not make them that way but they are born that way. God is the one who created us all and planned us even before the creation of earth, so if Homosexuals were Born different then it cannot be outside God's plan.


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Sreeram

 2013/12/6 1:26Profile
Sree
Member



Joined: 2011/8/20
Posts: 1700


 Re:

tbsound2,

Quote:
These multiple genes would be present in all human beings, but somewhat mutated or altered in function compared to other people. So why do I bring this up? Because the idea that you presented of "God putting a homosexual gene into a person" is an irrelevant point if the effect (homosexuality) was caused by normal genes we all have being effected and altered in their function by mutations or epigenetic changes



Whether it is presence of gene or mutation of gene, it cannot happen without God's plan. In either case since is telling us that God created men as homosexual.

Quote:

The fallen Adamic nature encompasses all of our being: the flesh, the soul, the spirit. Sin and death (or dying) is not only a matter of the mind, but a matter of the spirit, as well as the flesh (our physical body made up of trillions of cells that each have thousands of genes). Kids don't lie because they are taught, they do it because they are fallen, sinful people from birth with a corrupted body, soul, and spirit.



The reason you do not agree with my point - "I believe we cannot see homosexuality as other sins IF WE AGREE THAT HOMOSEXUALITY IS GENETIC" - is because you and I do not have the common definition of Flesh.

Flesh does not mean Human body, flesh referred in Bible does not literally mean human flesh. What Bible Calls Flesh is a nature of man to rebel God's command. It is not something that is coded inside man Physically, but something spiritually. Like conscience is +ive and Flesh is its negative equivalent. You cannot physically spot conscience in human body. Whenever Bible refers Heart, it is not the Physical Heart but our Conscience. Spirit also refers to our conscience. On Top of this we have mind that can be attributed to our brain and thought waves. We have by default a nature to rebels against our conscience. But every human being has the basic God's law written in their conscience forming the moral law. Even a Child knows that telling lie is wrong, but the Child still lies to escape a situation. Her mind wins over her conscience. There are Children who confess that they have lied to parents because their conscience is still tender.

When a man is born again he receives Holy Spirit who convicts him of his sins and the standard of Holy Spirit is way higher than Moral standards. Now the Holy Spirit also empowers man to overcome temptations of this Flesh (not Physical body). The man still lives in same Human body. He still has his sexual desires, but the spirit empowers him to use it the right way. He still has the same flesh that tempts him to have immoral sexual relationship, but Spirit empowers him to overcome. There is no change in his Physical make up what so ever. Even in the case where God miraculously takes way certain sins like addiction, it is only a spiritual healing not a Physical change, Physically the man is still possible to fall back to addiction. Cross and switchblade refers to situation where people who receive Baptism of Holy Spirit and are miraculously healed from Drug addiction, fall back to it again. It is like Dog returning to its own vomit.


If we consider that Homosexual is genetic then it is not the temptation of flesh, it is something like a man born with mental disorder. To such a person you cannot make them accountable to God's law. The sins committed by a mentally unstable man is forgiven by default because he has no control of his mind. Same way someone who is born Homosexual has no control over their desire for men, we cannot ask them to change their sexual orientation. God himself does not ask man to stop using his sexual desires but use it in a marriage bed. But a Homosexually born man cannot get married either and how can he apply his sexual desires in a acceptable way?


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Sreeram

 2013/12/6 1:59Profile
murrcolr
Member



Joined: 2007/4/25
Posts: 1529
Scotland, UK

 Re:

Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. Esp 2:2-3

There is a spirit that keeps us in bondage and holds us in bondage - that spirit worked and does work in all people in different ways - one may end up a homosexual - the next a drunk - or drug addict - or adulterer - that spirit influences and controls the flesh (spirit,soul and body) to be disobedient to God.

A homosexual may say, I was born that way - and in his mind he is correct, as that spirit will tell him 'he was born made way' as it seeks to keep that person in bondage.

For me I was prone to violent outburst from a very early age - my mum used to say "I see the Duncan (mothers maiden name) in you" which says it was a family trait that I had inherited.

In one sense it was inherited, I had inherited a spiritual force that made me that way - once I was delivered from that spirit and set free, I find that the "Duncan in me" was gone - and that I have new nature, it was Christ in me.


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Colin Murray

 2013/12/6 5:38Profile
TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5290
NC, USA

 Re:

Some of you who are arguing that homosexuality cannot be genetic in basis do so because you don't believe God would do that to someone and then hold them accountable.

However, I think it is more appropriate to say that "The Fall" did it than to say that God did it.

I think there is little doubt that there is a genetic component. I, like Deadn, have known kids growing up who at a very young age we all knew were effeminate and ultimately came out later as being gay. But they had brothers and sisters who were heterosexiual.

I think is it also fairly certain that there is a genetic component to alcoholism. Some people just cannot process it properly and it overtakes their lives.

But even if there is a certain predisposition to a certain sinful behavior, it does not give a license to sin.

Genetics have a lot to do with our behavior. Those of you with more than one child know that they can be very different at a very very young age, and they are brought up in the same environment.

I read not long ago that they think they have discovered a gene that may pre-dispose a person toward pedophilia. But this only solidifies the point-- genetic pre-disposition certainly does not equal license to act accordingly.


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Todd

 2013/12/6 6:52Profile
DEADn
Member



Joined: 2011/1/12
Posts: 1357
Lakeland FL

 Re:

Quote:

Some of you who are arguing that homosexuality cannot be genetic in basis do so because you don't believe God would do that to someone and then hold them accountable.

However, I think it is more appropriate to say that "The Fall" did it than to say that God did it.

I think there is little doubt that there is a genetic component. I, like Deadn, have known kids growing up who at a very young age we all knew were effeminate and ultimately came out later as being gay. But they had brothers and sisters who were heterosexiual.

I think is it also fairly certain that there is a genetic component to alcoholism. Some people just cannot process it properly and it overtakes their lives.

But even if there is a certain predisposition to a certain sinful behavior, it does not give a license to sin.

Genetics have a lot to do with our behavior. Those of you with more than one child know that they can be very different at a very very young age, and they are brought up in the same environment.

I read not long ago that they think they have discovered a gene that may pre-dispose a person toward pedophilia. But this only solidifies the point-- genetic pre-disposition certainly does not equal license to act accordingly.



Very heavy words here. While reading them I could not help but those of those who are even born with both male and female privates and I have often thought how does that happen? There must be a mutation of genes in there but then what role is God playing in it but that is another topic. Let's stick to homosexuality.

If there is a genetic component to homosexuality how do you suppose God can judge a person for it since it becomes a part of them? This is a great mystery to me if this were the case.

But again, all I want to with this thread is get everyone's thoughts on this issue because it goes much deeper than just saying it is a mere choice. At least I think it solely because of some of those we see who have come out as gay who are not doing it for some kind of name recognition.

No arguments here. Just a discussion on the topic because it is something all of us are confronting or will have to confront and we need to find out the truth behind the scenes in order to understand how to deal with it.


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John

 2013/12/6 7:34Profile





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