You misunderstand my post. I was replying to Dan. Please re-read his post and my response.
I DO NOT BELIEVE THAT GOD IS RESPONSIBLE FOR ANY PERSONS SIN!!
HE IS NOT CULPABLE FOR ANY PERSONS REBELLION!!
| 2005/4/30 14:28|
I understand that but when I look at the patrriachs Abraham lied---Issac Lied---- Jacob really lied almost as if that one sin had come to its completeness. So in what sense is adams sinm passed on to us. It has to be more than a legal transaction. What was effected in the spiritual death that we inherited?? I 've always heard and many preachers here state that basically a sinner can do nothing but sin, in the sense that he cannot do God's will.??????
| 2005/4/30 15:14||Profile|
| Can we obey God or not?????????? |
Can we obey God or not??????????
If it is not possible for any person to obey God after Adam's sin them someone please tell tell me how these people obeyed!
1 Kings 15:11 And Asa did that which was right in the eyes of the LORD, as did David his father.
2 Chronicles 14:2 And Asa did that which was good and right in the eyes of the LORD his God:
2 Chronicles 24:2 And Joash did that which was right in the sight of the LORD all the days of Jehoiada the priest.
Genesis 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.
Joshua 22:2 And said unto them, Ye have kept all that Moses the servant of the LORD commanded you, and have obeyed my voice in all that I commanded you:
Haggai 1:12 Then Zerubbabel the son of Shealtiel, and Joshua the son of Josedech, the high priest, with all the remnant of the people, obeyed the voice of the LORD their God, and the words of Haggai the prophet, as the LORD their God had sent him, and the people did fear before the LORD.
Did Adam or his descendants lose the ability to obey God after Adam's sin?
No!! The Bible tells the story of many people, some who walked with God and did what was pleasing in His sight and others who rebelled against God and did evil in His sight. It would be impossible to rebel or obey without the freedom to do so.
Joshua 24:15 "And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom you will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD." KJV
Isaiah 1:19-20 "If you be willing and obedient, you shall eat the good of the land: but if you refuse and rebel, you shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the LORD has spoken it." KJV
These passages prove that all of Adam's offspring still had the ability to obey or refuse God.
What about Enoch and others who really followed Gods commands? Again, it would not be possible to obey God if they did not have this ability.
| 2005/4/30 16:07|
| Re: Svineklev|
I did read his post and your reply.
You said, "I guess then this person's crime of rebellion is then God's fault?"
What did I misunderstand? As far as I can tell, you were saying that if what Dan said is true, then God is culpable for that person's rebellion. Isn't that the plain-English interpretation of your words? What am I missing?
I don't think YOU think God is culpable. I think you think that Dan is wrong.
I happen to think Dan is right. My post was to suggest that Dan is right and God is still not culpable.
If in any way I misrepresented you, I'm sorry.
| 2005/4/30 16:12||Profile|
| Re: Can we obey God or not?????????? |
The [i]regenerate[/i] have the ability to obey. 'Posse non peccare' (it is possible not to sin) is the Latin phrase historically used of the regenerate. Of the unregenerate, 'non posse non peccare' (it is not possible not to sin) is used. They cannot obey. We can...though not perfectly. Luther's phrase 'simul justus et peccator' (simultaneously justified and sinner) is used for this.
Sorry about all the Latin. I employ these phrases just to point out that there is nothing new under the sun. All these questions have been asked--and answered--before. We all need to study our history harder. We are surrounded by a vast cloud of witnesses. Let's not neglect them.
| 2005/4/30 16:25||Profile|
Winnipeg, Manitoba Canada
Does this mean a sinner can stand before God and claim the reason he is a sinner is because God never made himself "attractive" to him?
Not at all.
God's call doesn't make one 'not a sinner.'
I hope that is obvious. No one will be able to stand before God and say they have not sinned. Men will ----NOT---- go to heaven because they have been called to be "without sin" - men will go to heaven because they, being sinners, have called on the name of Christ in faith, and are trusting that Christ's imputed righteousness will satisfy God's righteous requirements as promised.
Your characterization would run more like this:
Sinner: You cannot send me to heaven because it is your fault that I wasn't called.
God: You are not going to hell because you weren't called. You are going to hell because you are a treasonous sinner - and your sins have earned you a just punishment.
Sinner: That is not just - you called only some people to salvation and not others!!
God: You are sadly mistaken. I am not evil because I have shown mercy to some.
Sinner: Yes you are! If you call one person, you have to call everyone or you are evil.
God: The reason you think that is because your heart is twisted. You think you rightfully deserve a gift just because someone else received one. Gifts are free, and I am not evil for giving them to some. You had a chance to obey, and you freely chose to disobey - you didn't want me in life - and so now you get your wish.
At this point the sinner would be cast into hell.
I guess then this persons crime of rebellion is then Gods fault?
No. Sin is the fault of the sinner.
Daniel van de Laar
| 2005/4/30 19:45||Profile|
Winnipeg, Manitoba Canada
Thanks for the thoughts!
I wouldn't extend the "attractive" example to a continuing marriage. My marriage is going on 14 years this summer, and while I am still attracted to my wife, our love and affection for one another and for Christ constitutes the glue that bonds us together in ever increasing love.
Physical attraction is just one of many involuntary desires we all possess - and I used it for that reason - because it was more obvious a choice than most. I didn't mean for the example to extend that far.
I would never deny the need to buffet the flesh, nor fail to endorse the practicality of fostering godly habits.
Daniel van de Laar
| 2005/4/30 19:58||Profile|
| Re: Can we obey God or not??????????|
Yes many of these men obeyed God, but they obeyed God because, God had given them the grace to do so. They could not do it on their own.
In Romans, Paul explains, how all are doomed, outside of Gods grace, and we all naturally hate God, and Gods ways.
So all those people that did obey, God gave them the grace to do so.
| 2005/4/30 20:13||Profile|
Amen to that! God has to work obedience in the heart BEFORE that heart can ever obey God. Read Phil 2:13, We can obey God, only because JESUS obeyed his Father and died for us to be able to obey God.
Amen and Amen!
| 2005/7/1 19:01||Profile|
| Re: why and how God repented that He had made Saul king over Israel?|
I may one day create my own theology, since I can find things I can agree and disagree on with just about everyone. I am more for soulwinning, but Calvanism vs freewill is still interesting.
The key for me to understanding why God repented of something is to understand what "repent" means.
If I repented of beating my wife, the result is, you will not see my doing it anymore. So repentance is not the act of doing something, but being sorry enough, that you don't want to do it again. Just being sorry isn't enough. I can smack my wife every day, and feel sorry each time. That is not repentance. Repentance is seen when I commit to not do it anymore.
Therefore God repenting means He was sorrowful enough not to do the same thing twice. So Saul obviously had a purpose. Maybe to prove to us that a leader that is head and shoulders above his people is not necessarily approved by God, as David was.
God repented that He had made man in Genesis 6:6, and of the evil He thought to do to His people in Exodus 32:14, and other times. So repentance is a necessary committal to not do something that would result in a less godly outcome. Clear as mud?
| 2005/7/2 1:33||Profile|