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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Is it sinful to baptize babies?

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turn
Member



Joined: 2011/4/27
Posts: 177
USA

 Re:

The practices of the Free Presbyterian Church of Scotland allow infant baptism but do not require it. Families are given freedom and discretion to decide for themselves. Members are allowed to determine the proper mode (dipping, pouring, sprinkling) and subjects (babies to adults at time of baptism).

The first sin of Adam and Eve was wanting to know too much about good and evil so they ate from the forbidden tree. We can go too far in wanting to create one rule to apply to everyone. There is a place for working some things out according to our own understanding and discernment. We spawn fewer divisions that way. We give more love that way to others who are different from ourselves. While the Bible contains the Ten Commandments and many commands of Christ, there are many issues where it does not explicitly declare good and evil. In one example, eating meat seems right for some and wrong for others (Romans 14:21ff).

Hebrews 5:14 explicitly tells us that there are areas where we need to apply discernment in determining good and evil and not look for one universal standard to govern both others and ourselves.

"But strong meat belongs to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil." (Hebrews 5:14)

Happy Thanksgiving season to the USA (this month) and Canada (last month). Happy discernment to you all.

 2013/11/17 20:52Profile
roadsign
Member



Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3777


 Re:

Quote:
The first sin of Adam and Eve was wanting to know too much about good and evil so they ate from the forbidden tree.


Ahhhh! So this is why we say: Ignorance is bliss!

Just kidding. The first couple wanted to BE God - masters of their own lives, their destiny. They declared all out rebellion, and saw the forbidden tree as a means to that ends. Right?

Re baptism: I know plenty on both sides of the fence who are authentic and plenty who are not. It doesn't seem that baptismal views actually form the dividing line in Christendom - separating the sheep from the goats.

Perhaps this thread should be labelled: Can the Spirit work in and through the lives of those who practice something that I believe is wrong? OR RATHER:

DOES the Spirit work in people of either camps?

Remember - even in scripture, some of those who had it right - in the end, had it all wrong - because they didn't grasp the SPIRIT of the law.

Still today, it seems strange that God would baptize in the Spirit some who are not baptized in water. Yet isn't that what God does!?

God forbid that we put his dear ones in the "sinners" camp and thus ourselves be instruments of division.



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Diane

 2013/11/18 10:15Profile
turn
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Joined: 2011/4/27
Posts: 177
USA

 Re:

Actually, I learned / was indirectly rebuked by Zac Poonen on this. I think it's fair to say by observation that many of the questions that Zac receives are asking for his ruling on questions of good and evil. In the Garden of Eden, there was another tree called the Tree of Life. As I understood it, Zac would actually like more questions like: How can I have life and have it more abundantly? Instead, he gets questions about issues of good and evil and discernment that divide professing Christians like baptism.

 2013/11/18 11:49Profile
turn
Member



Joined: 2011/4/27
Posts: 177
USA

 Re:

IMHO, you might organize questions commonly raised on Chistian forums or in church Q&A sessions like this:

Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil Questions:

* What laws apply to Christians?
* How should Christian women dress?
* Should we use wine or grape juice when we observe the Lord's Supper?
* What type of Christian music is best?
* Do Christians need to keep the Sabbath?

Tree of Life Questions (seldom raised including by me)?
* How can I have the abudant life promised by Jesus Christ?
* How can I bear more fruit and bring greater glory to the Father in heaven?
* How can I be more like Jesus?
* How can I make more and better disciples?
* How can I have more of the spirit of grace and supplications

 2013/11/18 19:42Profile









 Re:

Funny how we turn the most wonderful relationship into a code of do's and don'ts.

Our relationships with our husbands and wives and family and friends are built on love and mercy and grace, but somehow we want our relationship with Jesus Christ to be codified into a list of rules. Can anyone say, "PERFORMANCE" or "WORKS"?

The Life of the Spirit is not "rules" and "systems of living, thinking, speaking and performing".

The Life of the Spirit is supernaturally, natural.

Walk in Love before God and before men.

 2013/11/18 22:43









 Re:

///That is what many of us are seeing from the scriptures. That baptism follows a conversion experience to Christ. Generally resulting in a confession of faith in Jesus.

This is not the case with infants. They cannot confess faith in Christ.///

I guess the question we would have to answer, first, is what is the meaning of baptism? Is it meant a public statement or declaration of faith; or is it a sign of the covenant. If it is the first it cannot be given to children because they cannot make profesion of faith. If it is the second it must be given to whomever God wants it to be given.

Back to a more interesting phenomenon that I am observing. People here seem to be saying that sin is when I violate my conscience. So, although God has revealed that only those old enough to make profession of faith can be baptized if I in good conscience baptize a baby I haven't sinned. Brothers, that doesn't compute! Sin is transgression of the law. Sin is when we do something other than God wants. Knowing or not knowing is irrelevant. It may mean I am less culpable if I didn't know but it doesn't mean I'm innocent.

When I tell my children to do something and they don't I don't consult their conscience! There are consequences for disobedience in my home and disobedience in my home is directly related to the revealed will of mom and dad - the issue is never whether they did or didn't do what THEY thought best.

If baptism is a matter of indifference than lets admit it and stop dividing over baptism. We can put Baptists and Presbyterians and the Reformed churches all together. But, if baptism is not a matter of indifference, if God has revealed His will on this matter how can we say it isn't sin to go against His will?

edit: just-in a relationship cannot work without rules. One of the unspoken rules in our home is that pornography is not allowed. Happily, I can tell you that neither of us wants to view such filth, but the fact that I don't want it doesn't mean there isn't also a rule. It is antinomianism to deny rules in the Christian life! Yes, this thing called Christianity doesn't stop at rules and is fundamentally about a relationship but God has given us rules, so who are we to balk at them? In the NT we find a number of things that are now indifferent, and we are allowed to enjoy every creature of God. Food rules are gone! Does that mean all rules have been put away? If you say 'yes' than you have also said that God has not revealed His will to His people. If God has revealed His will than you have said "rules".

Edit 2: ///* How can I have the abudant life promised by Jesus Christ?
* How can I bear more fruit and bring greater glory to the Father in heaven?
* How can I be more like Jesus?
* How can I make more and better disciples?
* How can I have more of the spirit of grace and supplications///

Answer: "Trust and obey for there's no other way to be happy in Jesus than to trust and obey." And if we say obey than we must (we absolutely MUST!) also examine that first list of questions you raised... unless of course God has not spoken on those things. The secret things belong to our LORD but the revealed things to us and to our children. If it is in His book it matters.

 2013/11/19 9:26









 Re:

The sign of the new covenant is Jesus Christ indwelling an individual.

Christ in you, the Hope of Glory.

The sign of the New Covenant can never be anything less than the expression and life of Jesus Christ in His Church.

 2013/11/19 11:26
roadsign
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Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3777


 Re:

Quote:
People here seem to be saying that sin is when I violate my conscience.


For example?


_________________
Diane

 2013/11/19 12:47Profile









 Re:

appolus: ///As an ex Catholic it seems to me that if one baptized a child in ignorance to the truth that would be one thing, but if one baptized a child knowing better but seeking to pacify religious pressure, to compromise, that would be quite something else///

MaryJane: ///I am also an ex Catholic and I agree with what Frank shared///

PaulWest: ///I think a better question might be, is it "scriptural" to baptize babies///

just-in: ///Is it scriptural, is a much better question.///

Bearmaster: ///Based on my understanding of Mathew 28:18-20. I would say pastors in the Reformed tradition are in serious error baptizing infants in the name if the Triune God. They are distorting a precious scriptural truth that baptism is for believers and believers only. Also I would say the baptism of infants is an ungodly practice. I cringe when a Reformed pastor baptizes an infant in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Without further reflection I am not going to say such Reformed pastors are in sin. But will maintain they are in serious error as infant baptism cannot be established in scripture///

colin: ///Personally - I wouldn’t baptize a child, as I understand what baptism represents.

But if a Father and Mother who don’t understand baptism and they wanted to dedicate there child to God and get it baptized, I wouldn’t judge them or the child as having sinned against God, simply because they don’t know what baptism means.///

roadsign: ///Re baptism: I know plenty on both sides of the fence who are authentic and plenty who are not. It doesn't seem that baptismal views actually form the dividing line in Christendom - separating the sheep from the goats.

Perhaps this thread should be labelled: Can the Spirit work in and through the lives of those who practice something that I believe is wrong? OR RATHER:

DOES the Spirit work in people of either camps?///

roadsign, why not just admit its sin? We can ask both questions. Is it sin and does the Spirit work in people of either camps? Why does it have to be either or? I never suggested this is a matter of separating sheep from goats. I suggested it was a matter of sin.

But rather than saying as Savannah did that its sin not to baptize children of believers or to say the opposite that it is sin to baptize children most posters are saying its a matter of conscience. Why is that?

 2013/11/19 13:11
roadsign
Member



Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3777


 Re:

Quote:
most posters are saying its a matter of conscience. Why is that?


I do not wish to be put in this category. That would be a misjudgment. My point is that God seems to pour his Spirit into people on both sides. My concern is over our judgment of others more than the ritual itself. I prefer to avoid a path towards either condemning or condoning others based on their practice - but instead to point to God and his radical ways of fulfilling his redemptive purposes in the lives of sinners – and yes - even those who don’t have it all correct.

To be honest, I am more concerned about assumptions that accompany the ritual than the ritual itself. Baptism easily becomes a tool by which a church organization absolves its members from seeing the need for further honesty and conviction in the “inmost” places. But then, I have no control over what other Christians practice. And I don't have access into their hearts.

John the Baptist’s baptism was revolutionary and subversive. It meant that Rome wasn’t your highest power anymore. And that meant, in all likelihood, that you would end up in the amphitheatres – eaten by ferocious dogs. On the contrary, we baptize people in the safety of our edifices, and consider it more a symbol of acceptance in our religious establishment (and maybe even our nation) than a costly calling – to surrender all other trusts.

We can be sure that God judges the heart – and in the end, that’s what counts.

I’ll bet we all agree on that point.
Diane


_________________
Diane

 2013/11/19 13:33Profile





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