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Discussion Forum : General Topics : John MacArthur Responds to Critics Who Believe His Strange Fire Conference Is Divisive, Unloving

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proudpapa
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Joined: 2012/5/13
Posts: 2936


 Re:

Hi savannah ,

savannah asked /// Please point out the specific error you're alluding to in the quote in your previous post.///

Instead of calling it an error, Lets just agree that different camps use the same words with different meanings.

Savannah, do you believe that Tozers teachings on the deeper life are more reflective to what Macarthur terms as "the theology of quietism" in which he seems to distances himself from, or do you feel that Tozers teachings on the deeper life are more reflective of Macarthur views of Walking by the Spirit ?

The issue at hand with Macarthur is that it feels that the "strange fire conference" has attacked a larger spectrum than just the charismatic prosperty gospel.



 2013/10/28 10:02Profile
savannah
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Joined: 2008/10/30
Posts: 1957


 Re: Tozer's deeper life teachings



It's best to let the man speak for himself.

A.W. Tozer wrote,

Again, the experience of the Spirit's fullness coming upon the believer's heart is often judged by the amount and quality of emotional charge that accompanies it. Some go so far as to declare bluntly that no one is filled with the Spirit who has not experienced certain physical phenomena, particularly the act of speaking in unidentified tongues. Others will settle for an increased degree of joy or more effectiveness in their service.

All this is wrong, both scripturally and psychologically. It is the result of a misunderstanding of the nature of man's soul and of the relation of the spirit of man to the Spirit of God.

The workings of God in the hearts of redeemed men always over flow into observable conduct. Certain moral changes will take place immediately in the life of the new convert. A moral revolution without will accompany the spiritual revolution that has occurred within. As the evangelists tell us, even the cat will know it when the head of the house is converted. And the grocer will know it too, and the old cronies in the haunts where the man used to hang out will suspect that something has happened when they miss the new Christian from his accustomed place. All this is collateral proof of the validity of the man's Christian profession. But it is in no sense evidence to the man's own heart. It is not the witness of the Spirit.

_________________________________________________________

Again, I'd emphasize that Tozer himself did not experience any of these extraordinary gifts and manifestations.

 2013/10/28 10:47Profile
proudpapa
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Joined: 2012/5/13
Posts: 2936


 

A.W. Tozer
Confining the Holy Spirit to a Footnote :

"The question being discussed by many these days--why religion is increasing and morality slipping, all at the same time--finds its answer in this very error, the error of religious intellectualism. Men have a form of godliness but deny the power thereof. The text alone will not elevate the moral life. To become morally effective, the truth must be accompanied by a mystic element, the very element supplied by the Spirit of truth. The Holy Spirit will not be banished to a footnote without taking terrible vengeance against His banishers. That vengeance may be seen today in the nervous, giggling, worldly minded and thoroughly carnal fundamentalism that is spreading over the land. Doctrinally, it wears the robes of scriptural belief, but beyond that it resembles the religion of Christ and His apostles not at all.

The mysterious presence of the Spirit is vitally necessary if we are to avoid the pitfalls of religion. As the fiery pillar led Israel through the wilderness, so the Spirit of truth must lead us all our journey through. One text alone could improve things mightily for us if we would but obey it: "Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding" (Proverbs 3:5)."

Has john macarthur drawn a clear line in his attacks between a radical prosperity gospel such as benny hinn teaches, and that of a genuine Christian such as AB Simpsons teachings on Divine Healing ?


 2013/10/28 11:07Profile
proudpapa
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Joined: 2012/5/13
Posts: 2936


 Re:

Hi savannah

savannah wrote : ///Again, I'd emphasize that Tozer himself did not experience any of these extraordinary gifts and manifestations.///


A.W. Tozer :
"....I believe in the kind of miracles that God gives to His people who live so close to Him that answers to prayer are common and these miracles are not uncommon. John Wesley never lowered himself to preach miracles once in his life. But the miracles that followed John Wesley's ministry were unbelievable. On one instance he had to make an engagement, and his horse fell lame and could not travel. Wesley got down on his knees beside his horse and prayed for its healing. Then he got back up and rode, without the horse limping, to where he was going. He did not publicize the miracle and say, "We'll have a big tent here and advertize it." God just did those things for him. While C. H. Spurgeon did not preach healing, he had more people delivered in answer to his prayer than any doctor in London. Those are the kinds of miracles I am talking about."

 2013/10/28 11:11Profile
savannah
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Joined: 2008/10/30
Posts: 1957


 Re: more notable quotes


proudpapa,

To the two quotes you posted from Tozer I'd give a hearty amen!

 2013/10/28 11:37Profile
proudpapa
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Joined: 2012/5/13
Posts: 2936


 Re:

Hi savannah'

savannah wrote : ///To the two quotes you posted from Tozer I'd give a hearty amen!///

Yes, but I am a little confused as how you hear the same thing when you listen or read MacArthur and as that with Tozer.

Can we agree that even within the calvinist camp that their is a clear distinction in the understanding of "Illumination" between that of those, such as Martyn Lloyed Jones, Paul Washer, John Piper etc. vs those such as BB Warfield, John MacArthur, James White etc.

 2013/10/29 11:59Profile
proudpapa
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Joined: 2012/5/13
Posts: 2936


 

"It is perfectly clear that in New Testament times, the gospel was authenticated in this way by signs, wonders and miracles of various characters and descriptions ... Was it only meant to be true of the early church? ... The Scriptures never anywhere say that these things were only temporary—never! There is no such statement anywhere"
- Martin Lloyd-Jones

To hold such a view, as cessationist Martin Lloyd-Jones says : "is simply to quench the Spirit"

 2013/10/29 12:24Profile
savannah
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Joined: 2008/10/30
Posts: 1957


 Re: agree


proudpapa,you said,

"Can we agree..."

YES! We can. There obviously is a clear distinction between some of these men. The article I posted, "What Cessationism Is Not" in another thread I thought did very well clarifying these differences and misunderstandings. I would very much so agree with said article.

To quote David Martyn-Lloyd Jones, who was quite a gifted man of God,a pastor(Presbyterian)and theologian;

"My attitude to the question of Tongues and other gifts is this: I have never been able to accept the traditional teaching as stated particularly, perhaps, by Warfield, that all gifts came to an end at the Apostolic era. I cannot see any scriptural warrant for this teaching; indeed it seems to me to be a kind of dispensationalism which renders much of the epistles useless. For instance it implies that the teaching of 1 Thessalonians 5, verses 19 - 21 has no application today. All I say is, that while it is clear from the history of the Church that certain gifts seem to have been in abeyance over the centuries the Holy Spirit in His Lordship may give them at any time. Indeed there is clear teaching that towards the end of this age such gifts are likely to reappear in great power, and at the same time many counterfeits.The result of all this is that while I am very unhappy about this Charismatic Movement, and regard it as a real danger to the true Church and the Gospel, because it implies constantly that doctrine does not matter at all, I am equally concerned that we should not become guilty of "quenching the Spirit" and tying ourselves up in a dead orthodoxy."

 2013/10/29 20:25Profile
proudpapa
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Joined: 2012/5/13
Posts: 2936


 Re:

Hi savannah

RE: ///"What Cessationism Is Not" in another thread I thought did very well clarifying these differences and misunderstandings///

I remember you posting it, but I can not seem to find it, what thread was that under ?

Edit add: I found it

 2013/10/29 21:16Profile
murrcolr
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Joined: 2007/4/25
Posts: 1529
Scotland, UK

 Re:

Quote: I am very unhappy about this Charismatic Movement, and regard it as a real danger to the true Church and the Gospel.

What!!!!!!

At the time of my conversion as lay down on my bed after praying, a wind began to blow into me (yes a physical wind) and I sat up and spoke in tounges.

Am I a part of the Charismatic Movement or the true church?...


_________________
Colin Murray

 2013/10/29 22:30Profile





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