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Almond
Member



Joined: 2005/4/6
Posts: 13


 Re:

Paulwest,

"So then do the teachings of Jesus, especially the parables, apply to the Old Covenant or the New Covenant? "


I have never punched a moderator. Did you mean didache? He spoke a parable in the Natural towards the Old Covanant, and in the Spirit towards the New.



 2013/11/1 20:28Profile
PaulWest
Member



Joined: 2006/6/28
Posts: 3405
Dallas, Texas

 Re:

Quote:
I have never punched a moderator. Did you mean didache? He spoke a parable in the Natural towards the Old Covanant, and in the Spirit towards the New.


Punch a moderator? I think it's time for me to bow out of this thread. I must have really hit a nerve here. Brethren, I sincerely fail to see what all the confusion and anger is about.

But to answer your question, and to clarify:

I meant what I wrote: didactic. It means for the purpose of teaching someone something. We were talking about Jesus suffering in Gethsamane. Rookie brought up a great point: Christ's struggling and angelic comfort in the garden was not unlike Elijah's struggling and angelic comfort as he hid from Jezebel. To say Elijah was defeated, it then must be said that Christ was defeated too.

I pointed out the different reasons for the struggle; namely, Jesus was about to take on the sins of the world and be forsaken by His Father for the first time since the creation of the universe. His disciples were also hiding out, full of fear and doubt. This was all before Calvary and the advent of the Holy Spirit. So Rookie brought up another great point: Do we then apply the parables to the Old or New Covenant. They apply spiritually to the New, of course. They can't be rightfully understood through Old Covenant eyes. Christ's sufferings in the garden were not "didactic" in a New Covenant sense, but were rather the fulfillment of OT scripture. They are not New Covenantally didactic because none of us will have to take on the sins of the world and be forsaken by God. I honestly don't know why people are getting so angry with me.

God bless you all. This will be my last post in this thread.


_________________
Paul Frederick West

 2013/11/1 21:10Profile
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4792


 Re:

To continue on with the precept of God's plan and the preappointed times and boundaries men find themselves in...

The ministry in the power and spirit of Elijah is described this way...

Luk 3:3
And he went into all the region around the Jordan, preaching a baptism of repentance for the remission of sins,

Luk 3:4
as it is written in the book of the words of Isaiah the prophet, saying:

“The voice of one crying in the wilderness:
‘Prepare the way of the LORD;
Make His paths straight.

Luk 3:5
Every valley shall be filled
And every mountain and hill brought low;
The crooked places shall be made straight
And the rough ways smooth;

Luk 3:6
And all flesh shall see the salvation of God.’ ”fn


The LORD uses men to call the individual to repent and to turn away from the deceptions of Satan and to call on the Savior for salvation. The contents of this work is described in the following verse...

Jer 1:9
Then the LORD put forth His hand and touched my mouth, and the LORD said to me:

“Behold, I have put My words in your mouth.

Jer 1:10
See, I have this day set you over the nations and over the kingdoms,
To root out and to pull down,
To destroy and to throw down,
To build and to plant.”


The power and spirit of an Elijah's ministry is to "root out and pull down" those who exalt themselves through the works of Satan. All that consists of false teachings, the itching ears, believing evil is good, the promotion of the lie are rooted out or revealed to those who were deceived. The men who have been given this stewardship find themselves living in generations where the sheep have been scattered, where the shepherds have grown fat. They are called in a time where God has allowed desolation to take hold in hope that some might call out to Him. The ministry in the power and spirit of Elijah is the "voice of one calling out in the wilderness."

The lie is revealed, the stronghold torn down, then and only then is it time "To build and to plant". Prepare the way of the Lord, make His paths straight. The work of Elijah is to remove the lie and point to the Word of God.

After this work of men preappointed to a time of desolation, and the baptism of John comes the work of Isaiah, of Paul, of the LORD Himself.

Jhn 1:12
But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:

Jhn 1:13
who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

The baptism of the Holy Spirit.


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Jeff Marshalek

 2013/11/2 9:55Profile
proudpapa
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Joined: 2012/5/13
Posts: 2936


 Re:

RE: //"So then do the teachings of Jesus, especially the parables, apply to the Old Covenant or the New Covenant? "//

my thoughts are :

If we turn the teachings of Jesus into law, We are not embracing the New.

The parables are an excelant example of what alot of the Old Testament is for the Christian and that is allegory that often relates and is usefull for us right now.

 2013/11/2 11:15Profile
a-servant
Member



Joined: 2008/5/3
Posts: 435


 Re:

"If we turn the teachings of Jesus into law, We are not embracing the New."

Jesus is our salvation, not the "New"

you just found a way to say teachings of Jesus are interesting at times, but have no binding validity for Christians.

And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say? Luke 6:46

 2013/11/3 7:22Profile
twayneb
Member



Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 2000
Joplin, Missouri

 Re:

I have been following this thread with interest, but time has prevented me from posting.


God's original covenant with Abraham was not a covenant of law. Abraham walked on that covenant through faith, and through believing God, he was declared righteous. One of Isaac's sins was chosen by God to be the father of a nation through which the promise given to Abraham would come to pass. So Israel was chosen by His to be the people through which the promised Messiah was to come. "and in thy seed shall all nations of the earth be blessed". We know this promise seed was Jesus Christ. This covenant had a priesthood of an order that was not prescribed under the law.


But before the Messiah would come, there would be another covenant, we might say an intervening covenant, made with Israel. It was a covenant of law. Scripture tells us a few things about this covenant. It was good and holy (obviously since it was given by God). It was temporary (until the promised seed should come). It was given because of transgressions (it served to restrain sin). It was a shadow, a picture of what was to come. (Christ was witnessed by the law and the prophets). It restrained the people just as a school master. (schoolmasters or tutor in the sense of the tutor a child of mobility would be continually governed and trained by until he reached adulthood.)


But we also learn of this covenant of law that it was weak through the flesh (it was all carnal ordinances that man tried to keep through his own carnal effort). It could not result in a person being justified before God as its ministry was to condemn its, to reveal to us the unrighteousness that was in us. It (meaning quite specifically the ten commandments) was a ministration of death written and graven in stone.


But the prophets, David, Jeremiah, etc. were told that there was coming a better was coming. There was coming a time when God would enact a new covenant with Israel. In this covenant, Good would write His laws on their heart, not on stone tablets. That God would no longer impute sin unto them. That the sacrifice of the lamb of God would do the work that animal sacrifice could only picture.
It is not a covenant with carnal ordinances, but a covenant of spiritual life through rebirth by the Spirit. It is a covenant of the grave of God in pardoning your transgressions. And we enter, not by working hard to keep ordinances that are impossible for our flesh to keep, but by receiving the sacrifice that was freely given and taking part in that sacrifice through dying to our old man so that we might receive newness of life.


And the covenant was not limited to Israel. But God temporarily cut off the natural branch so that the wild might be grafted in. But the glory when, I think soon, the natural branches are once again grafted into their own vine again.

I think we must be careful that we define covenant on the same way. When we say old covenant, we are not talking about the first half of our Bible and everything contained therein, but about the specific covenant of law established at Sinai.

There is a huge danger in taking the message of the new covenant and trying to somehow "fulfill its requirements" in our flesh as though it were a law. This is the definition of legalism, and it will work the same death in us as did the old covenant. The new covenant cannot be kept by the fl esh, but rather received in the spirit. It is then that the law of God, the governing power of the holy spirit, will transform our pretty man as we walk out obedience to that which had already become reality in our spirit. It is the grace of God that teaches its holiness.



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Travis

 2013/11/3 7:50Profile
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4792


 Re:

Brother Travis wrote:

God's original covenant with Abraham was not a covenant of law. Abraham walked on that covenant through faith, and through believing God, he was declared righteous.

Yes and Amen. I could just highlight your entire post and put an Amen to that as well.

Mat 13:15
For the hearts of this people have grown dull.
Their ears are hard of hearing,
And their eyes they have closed,
Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears,
Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn,
So that I shouldfn heal them.'fn

This also is true today, not only the Jew but the gentile as well.


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Jeff Marshalek

 2013/11/3 9:02Profile
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4792


 Re:

just-in quoted;

Heb 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
Heb 11:40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

I missed this earlier in the thread and was reading in Isaiah this morning....

Isa 26:1
In that day this song will be sung in the land of Judah:

“We have a strong city;
God will appoint salvation for walls and bulwarks.

Isa 26:2
Open the gates,
That the righteous nation which keeps the truth may enter in.

Isa 26:3
You will keep him in perfect peace,
Whose mind is stayed on You,
Because he trusts in You.

Isa 26:4
Trust in the LORD forever,
For in YAH, the LORD, is everlasting strength.fn

Isa 26:5
For He brings down those who dwell on high,
The lofty city;
He lays it low,
He lays it low to the ground,
He brings it down to the dust.

Isa 26:6
The foot shall tread it down—
The feet of the poor
And the steps of the needy.”

Isa 26:7
The way of the just is uprightness;
O Most Upright,
You weigh the path of the just.

Isa 26:8
Yes, in the way of Your judgments,
O LORD, we have waited for You;
The desire of our soul is for Your name
And for the remembrance of You.

Isa 26:9
With my soul I have desired You in the night,
Yes, by my spirit within me I will seek You early;
For when Your judgments are in the earth,
The inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.

Isa 26:10
Let grace be shown to the wicked,
Yet he will not learn righteousness;
In the land of uprightness he will deal unjustly,
And will not behold the majesty of the LORD.

Isa 26:11
LORD, when Your hand is lifted up, they will not see.
But they will see and be ashamed
For their envy of people;
Yes, the fire of Your enemies shall devour them.

Isa 26:12
LORD, You will establish peace for us,
For You have also done all our works in us.

Isa 26:13
O LORD our God, masters besides You
Have had dominion over us;
But by You only we make mention of Your name.

Isa 26:14
They are dead, they will not live;
They are deceased, they will not rise.
Therefore You have punished and destroyed them,
And made all their memory to perish.

Isa 26:15
You have increased the nation, O LORD,
You have increased the nation;
You are glorified;
You have expanded all the borders of the land.

Isa 26:16
LORD, in trouble they have visited You,
They poured out a prayer when Your chastening was upon them.

Isa 26:17
As a woman with child
Is in pain and cries out in her pangs,
When she draws near the time of her delivery,
So have we been in Your sight, O LORD.

Isa 26:18
We have been with child, we have been in pain;
We have, as it were, brought forth wind;
We have not accomplished any deliverance in the earth,
Nor have the inhabitants of the world fallen.

Isa 26:19
Your dead shall live;
Together with my dead bodyfn they shall arise.
Awake and sing, you who dwell in dust;
For your dew is like the dew of herbs,
And the earth shall cast out the dead.

Isa 26:20
Come, my people, enter your chambers,
And shut your doors behind you;
Hide yourself, as it were, for a little moment,
Until the indignation is past.

Isa 26:21
For behold, the LORD comes out of His place
To punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity;
The earth will also disclose her blood,
And will no more cover her slain.


This Scripture is commentary, an explanation of what the writer of Hebrews was expounding upon in verse 39 and 40.



_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2013/11/3 9:41Profile
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4792


 Re:

again as commentary on Hebrews 11:39-40 and also in support of what Brother Travis wrote:


Job 19:23
“Oh, that my words were written!
Oh, that they were inscribed in a book!

Job 19:24
That they were engraved on a rock
With an iron pen and lead, forever!

Job 19:25
For I know that my Redeemer lives,
And He shall stand at last on the earth;

Job 19:26
And after my skin is destroyed, this I know,
That in my flesh I shall see God,

Job 19:27
Whom I shall see for myself,
And my eyes shall behold, and not another.
How my heart yearns within me!

Job 19:28
If you should say, ‘How shall we persecute him?’—
Since the root of the matter is found in me,

This man lived before the generation of Moses in Egypt. And he also looks for a time in the future where the promise of God to be made prefect is complete.

The 1000 year reign of Christ and the resurrection of the dead in Christ.


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2013/11/3 10:16Profile
ADisciple
Member



Joined: 2007/2/3
Posts: 835
Alberta, Canada

 Re:

I too have been following this thread with interest—for the difference between the Old Covenant and the New Covenant is a very important consideration—and I was sorry to see Paul West bow out. You have said some good and vital things, Paul. Also appreciated what Twayneb just posted.

I’d like to point out two things.

First (which others have already brought up), it’s clear from the New Testament Scriptures that the Old Covenant is no longer in effect. God has brought in a New Covenant. In fact the Old Covenant, as Twayneb just said, was only meant to be temporary in the first place, “till the Seed should come to whom the promises were made” (Gal. 3.19). That seed is Christ, and those in Christ” (Gal. 3.29). (See also Heb. 8.13.)

The important thing to remember is that the New Covenant was first made “with the house of Israel and the house of Judah” (Jer. 31.31). (These two “houses” are incorporated into one house, the “house of Israel,” in verse 33.) So it is wrong thinking to say that the Old Covenant is for people of Jewish lineage, and the New Covenant is for Gentiles, and that both covenants are still in effect.

God did away with the Old Covenant and gave His people—the Jews—a New Covenant. The New Covenant is for Jews—for “the house of Israel.” In fact this is the only covenant extant for them or for anyone else at this time. The mystery of God, which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men, is that in the days when God brought the New Covenant into being He planned to open the door for the Gentiles to come into this covenant (Eph. Ch. 3). I am glad.

The second thing I’d like to point out is this. The original question asks the difference between the Old Covenant and the New Covenant. According to the apostle Paul, the difference is one between bondage and liberty. Paul shows that the Old Covenant is a covenant that “gendereth to bondage” (Gal. 4.24). In other words, those who were under this covenant were not free—they were in bondage both to the law of Moses and the law of sin and death, which the law of Moses could not deliver them from.

Paul uses an allegory to describe “the two covenants.” He likens the Old Covenant, the Sinai covenant, to Hagar the bondwoman who brought forth Ishmael, and the New Covenant to Sarah the freewoman, who brought forth Isaac the son of promise (Gal 4. 21-31).

Hagar, Paul says, represents the Old Covenant. “For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children” (Gal. 4.25). Paul contrasts the Sinai covenant with “Jerusalem which is above,” which, he says, “is free, which is the mother of us all”—that is, the mother of all whether Jew or Gentile who are in new-covenant relationship with God through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. (This is the “mount” unto which those under the New Covenant have come—not Sinai, but “mount Zion... the heavenly Jerusalem, Heb. 12.22.)

This is all so wonderful. It is sad when contention arises over these things. It can only be because of a failure to see what God has done in the New Covenant. There is cause for great rejoicing for us all, for “the Jew first, and also for the Gentile.”








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Allan Halton

 2013/11/3 11:25Profile





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