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rookie
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Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4792


 Re:

a-servant writes

"Is that of vital importance? What has time to do with it..."

The exact number of years is not important, but the understanding that the Scriptures gives us a clear sequence of events in the testimony of Abraham. Paul uses Abraham's testimony as the foundation for his teaching of the difference between following the law and following the Spirit.

God first commands Abram with a promise in Genesis 12. The Scriptures teach us that God declared Abraham righteous in....

Gen 15:6
And he believed in the LORD, and He accounted it to him for righteousness.


Paul points to this moment in time in the life of Abraham as the point where God's grace had enabled Abraham to believe His promise. And then we see that God makes a covenant with Abraham.

I thought by asking for the number of years one might begin to search the Scripture, and then recognize the grace extended to Abram before he was declared righteous by God.


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Jeff Marshalek

 2013/10/30 20:14Profile
rookie
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Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4792


 Re:

just-in writes:

"He gives us a transplant. Takes out the stony heart and gives us His heart, His Spirit. "Christ in you, the hope of glory". "

Yes indeed God truly does transform one's heart as you stated above. According to Scripture, what are the details of this "transplant"?


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2013/10/30 20:19Profile









 Paul

its your last line:

Quote:
Let's try to stick to the difference between the covenants.



"difference"?....no. its a Continuum, the Unfolding Story of God. are you not a child of Abraham?....also?

has God ripped away, revoked His Covenant with Israel?

if you say "yes"...A. you adhere to replacement theology, and b. you imply God is a liar. (banish that thought)

anti-Semitic tirade? hardly. I posted a link to a preview chapter to Michael Brown's "The Church has Blood on its Hands", I don't whether you read it...but it certainly underlines the 1700 years of failure, as venerated "church fathers", albeit mostly romanist, spew out venom and hatred against the Jewish people....and that is the fruit of the new covenant?

i'm tired Paul...i'm so tired of business as usual, the constant "religious" arguments, which I strive to stay out of ....this one is a 'calvinist', this one an 'armnian', this one a 'cessationist' and 'ist' here, and 'ism' there, and please put some "pretrib" as a topping.

look how they handled with the Jerusalem Edict....four very very simple, "please dont's".....and Jesus pruned away 613 laws into TWO Royal Commandments, first the Schma, and then "love your neighbor as yourself"....which it appears in the past 1700 years, its been difficult for the "church" to manage two Royal Commandments....and heaven forbid for any new covenant believer to search out the "Old Testament" for the Footsteps of Messiah....I didn't even KNOW what "Pauline Christianity" was!!...if Paul was around?....oh my.

why cant anybody just testify, "I love God, I love you, I love Messiah Jesus, the gift of Faith given to me is simple and child-like and trusting because I am totally dependent on God, and I know when this body of flesh dies, I go to the New Jerusalem".

even taking the energy tonight to type this out...just grieves me, its so religiously tedious....but to show love and honor, I believe you deserve SOME explanation....but you could of least read what a much smarter man than I, another Jew who follows Jesus, wrote of the poison within the church, and its history.

 2013/10/30 20:48
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4792


 Re:

PaulWest wrote:

"The Old Covenant was made between Israel and God. Not between someone like myself, who happens ethnically to be a non-Jew, and Yahweh. So this means even if there were no New Covenant, I am not bound by the Sabbath laws, the levitical tithe, etc. Paul never in his epistles alluded to such with the gentile believers of the churches in Greece. This, of course, is why in the New Testament you will not read the of the 10% ceremonial tithe, Sabbath observance and dietery laws being imposed upon gentiles or any of the 600-plus commands governing sacrifices and grain offerings and the like which were given to Moses and the Hebrew priests on the mountain. "


This is an important point. For Scripture pointed to an event in the Law and the Prophets that the Gentile would also be added into the kingdom of God. Scripture points to a time where the Holy One of Israel would also minister to the Gentile. And Paul, in his ministry, first to the Jew and then to the Gentile, preaches about the grace that is extended to both Jew and Gentile. And furthermore, those who continue to live according to the "ministry of condemnation" have no part in the kingdom of God.


Yet we have this testimony of the people of Jacob prior to the Law given to Moses...

Eze 20:5
“Say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD: “On the day when I chose Israel and raised My hand in an oath to the descendants of the house of Jacob, and made Myself known to them in the land of Egypt, I raised My hand in an oath to them, saying, ‘I am the LORD your God.’

Eze 20:6
“On that day I raised My hand in an oath to them, to bring them out of the land of Egypt into a land that I had searched out for them, ‘flowing with milk and honey,’fn the glory of all lands.

Eze 20:7
“Then I said to them, ‘Each of you, throw away the abominations which are before his eyes, and do not defile yourselves with the idols of Egypt. I am the LORD your God.’

Eze 20:8
“But they rebelled against Me and would not obey Me. They did not all cast away the abominations which were before their eyes, nor did they forsake the idols of Egypt. Then I said, ‘I will pour out My fury on them and fulfill My anger against them in the midst of the land of Egypt.’

Eze 20:9
“But I acted for My name’s sake, that it should not be profaned before the Gentiles among whom they were, in whose sight I had made Myself known to them, to bring them out of the land of Egypt.

Eze 20:10
“Therefore I made them go out of the land of Egypt and brought them into the wilderness.

Eze 20:11
“And I gave them My statutes and showed them My judgments, ‘which, if a man does, he shall live by them.’fn


The LORD made Himself known to the people. But not all responded to His call through the Holy Spirit. And just as you have stated the Mosaic Law was established to serve as a tutor for the people.


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Jeff Marshalek

 2013/10/30 20:54Profile
proudpapa
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Joined: 2012/5/13
Posts: 2936


 

What is everyones opinion of this verse ?

Matthew 11:11
Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.





 2013/10/30 21:13Profile
proudpapa
Member



Joined: 2012/5/13
Posts: 2936


 Re:

Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:

Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

 2013/10/30 21:19Profile
PaulWest
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Joined: 2006/6/28
Posts: 3405
Dallas, Texas

 Re:

Quote:
Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.


This is an excellent quote from Jesus which clearly demonstrates the difference between both covenants. Consider this:

Paul the Apostle considered himself the "least" of all the saints in the New Covenant. John the Baptist was considered the "greatest" of all those under the Old Covenant. In the final moments of their lives, both spent time in prison, and both were at last beheaded. But there is one important difference between them: John the Baptist, the "greatest" under the Old Covenent, began to question if Jesus Christ were really the Messiah, whereas Paul, the "least" under the New, wrote what we know today as the "Prison Epistles", letters of correspondance bursting at the seams with inexpressible joy, hope, faith, encouragement! Paul was under grace; John the Baptist was under the law.

Even the greatest of all the prophets didn't have what lowly Paul had. Sadly, this is but a common trait with many of the luminaries of the Old Testament, great men of God who were confined to the "schoolmaster" as heaven and earth waited for the inauguration of the Better Covenant of grace through Jesus Christ. Look, for instance, at the cowardice failings of Abraham, in allowing his wife to be taken into a pagan king's harem to save his own life; or, Isaac, who was more interested in eating Esau's venison than bowing to God's will concerning the prophetic birthright conferral upon his younger son Jacob - and the shameful list goes on and on as we move through the patriarchs, prophets, judges and kings under the Old Covenant. We can't blame them: they were all under the Old Covenant law. Men going after money, women and power and murdering their adversaries while serving the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob with burnt sacrifices. And those who had the moral fortitude to eschew those vices, men like Jeremiah, Elijah and John the Baptist, would instead succumb to doubt and fear when trouble hit.

But we don't see any of this wavering faith when we come to New Covenant guys like Paul and Peter and James and Timothy and John. They weren't perfect, but you don't hear about Peter committing adultery with a sister in Antioch, or John beginning to question if Jesus were really the Christ while he was isolated on Patmos. These were men of a different spiritual calibre, men to whom the grace of Jesus Christ was given. As Jesus Himself quantified, even the least under the New was greater than the greatest under the Old.

I really enjoy these types of discussions. I think this is such a precious topic to talk about and study.

Paul


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Paul Frederick West

 2013/10/30 22:47Profile
a-servant
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Joined: 2008/5/3
Posts: 435


 Re:

Quote "....and then recognize the grace extended to Abram before he was declared righteous by God."

ah ok I understand, yes that is true.


Quote "difference"?....no. its a Continuum, the Unfolding Story of God."

yes, it's a matter of perspective. And that perspective is formed when you first come in contact with the Bible, wether you start reading it on page one, or start towards the end of it at the page that says: NT, and consider that the beginning. What is not the actual beginning of God dealing with His people however, and these final chapters cannot stand alone.

investigate the contents of the new heart.

Are there any laws written on that heart? Or is that a meaningless question "because the Holy Spirit regulates all that in ways we cannot understand - meaning "undefined ways" and there would be no actual governing law regulating how the Spirit acts. Is our God a god of chaos and changes His mind frequently and according to the situation? Or has He a history and foundation in dealing with people, especially His people.

Personally I found part to that answer when looking at what Paul says that keeps people out of heaven. These are indicators that laws have been broken. Spiritual laws some people believe do not exist, and neither could be a deciding factor in the New Covenant. If that would be so, Paul would be a false prophet and teacher, something I cannot affirm.

 2013/10/30 22:58Profile
Sree
Member



Joined: 2011/8/20
Posts: 1714


 Re:

Quote:
Paul the Apostle considered himself the "least" of all the saints in the New Covenant. John the Baptist was considered the "greatest" of all those under the Old Covenant. In the final moments of their lives, both spent time in prison, and both were at last beheaded. But there is one important difference between them: John the Baptist, the "greatest" under the Old Covenent, began to question if Jesus Christ were really the Messiah, whereas Paul, the "least" under the New, wrote what we know today as the "Prison Epistles", letters of correspondance bursting at the seams with inexpressible joy, hope, faith, encouragement! Paul was under grace; John the Baptist was under the law.



This is the answer I would have given as well. Good to see believers in similar spirit. Grace is not just our sins being forgiven, it is help in the time of need (Hebrews 4). Paul got that help in prison and hence he was able to write those epistles. But John did not have it.

But to the one more is given, more is expected!!!


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Sreeram

 2013/10/31 1:56Profile
Sree
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Joined: 2011/8/20
Posts: 1714


 Re:

I was not raised as a Christian in a Church like most of the believers here. I was raised as a idol worshiper. But when I gave my life to Christ, I started reading the New Testament first, I was very much gripped by the Gospel, the teachings of Jesus. It was not until I had a good understanding of NT did I turn to OT. When I started reading OT, I always read it with the understanding that I had of NT. This clearly showed me that OT was just a shadow. I could clearly see the Spirit of God behind the laws of OT. I could clearly see men failing God when put under temptation. I know clearly I was reading a lower standard of life. But the problem with many of those here who are brought up as Christians from Childhood is they are exposed to OT first, especially to the stories of David, Moses, etc in their Sunday School. They do this to keep the kids interested in Bible, nothing wrong here. So such believers when they Grow they fail to have an opportunity like how I have, to read OT with the spirit and wisdom of NT. A great blessing I see in my erroneous Childhood!!!


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Sreeram

 2013/10/31 2:05Profile





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