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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Submission to Government

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 Re:

The Lord merely told Peter to put his sword back in place. He did however advise the disciples to sell clothes to buy swords. Luke 22:36. However, He was speaking to men who had not been converted yet verse 32 in the AV.

According to my theology, this was prior to their baptism in the Spirit as a second work of saving grace. Once a man has been baptised, he will lay down his sword willingly, as he will trust the Lord entirely for whatever befalls him. He will no more bear a sword than commit any sin.

Before then the Lord does not command pacifism. It is up to the conscience of the believer. He is however, under the wrath of God as he is not fully in Christ whether a sword is in his hand or not. The Lord is sometimes graceful to men in an unsanctified state but they cannot depend on it. The promises are for the sanctified.

Therefore there is no judgement can be made over the matter whether it is right or wrong. The wrongness is in the man's standing before the Lord.

 2013/10/15 5:41









 Re:

There are so many anecdotal stories that we all have. The father of a very good friend of my wife who lives in Minnesota is from Germany. He was conscripted into Der Fuhrer's army or else be executed. He was a very committed Christian and prayed that God would keep him from harm and also from harming others. In his first battle he was knocked out and taken prisoner. He never fired a shot. He spent the rest of the war in a prison camp in America.

Another story and I believe I read it in Martyr's Mirror where the Early Church denied communion (fellowship) to soldiers. I will have to look that one up.

Years ago, I had 3 Messianic Jewish brothers who went back to Israel to witness for the Lord. They knew they would be required to join the military and they all became cooks. Reuben, Benjamin and Schmuel. There were serious brothers in the Lord.

 2013/10/15 8:31
bluinos
Member



Joined: 2005/2/4
Posts: 78


 Re:

by just-in on 2013 10/14 17:07:00

Just-in,

Since you are so adament in regards to the Military and your comment towards the government as being corrupt;

When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that the wicked man does, shall he live? All the righteousness which he has done shall not be remembered; because of the unfaithfulness of which he is guilty and the sin which he has committed, because of them he shall die. Eze 18:24

When a wicked man turns away from the wickedness which he committed, and does what is lawful and right, he preserves himself alive. Because he consideres and turns away from all the transgressions which he committed, he shall surely live; he shall not die. Eze 18:26

Our system is not corrupt as I too pay taxes.. and believe that we are soldiers in the army of God, prisioners for Christ..


*edit

 2013/10/15 8:41Profile
proudpapa
Member



Joined: 2012/5/13
Posts: 2936


 Re:

Charles Finney believed that the exemption clause to "thou shalt not kill" for the battle-field still applies

Oswald Chambers served as a World War I chaplain, He was buried in Cairo with full military honors.

We could go on and on, of Spirit filled Christians in the past whom stood on both sides of the isle on this type of subject.

I think that we need to be very careful in judging those things that God in his Sovereignty and infinate wisdom never gave an absolute proof text for.

 2013/10/15 8:52Profile









 Re:

There are men's opinions and then there is Scripture. We are not measured by men's opinions but by the Word of God which never changes even if Constantine becomes a " Christian," and needs a theology that permits him to continue building an empire or kingdom here on earth.

Early church fathers are presumed to know or have a much better idea what the Apostles taught because they themselves served under them or were very close to the source. In the secular world we see this when the Supreme Court goes back and looks to see what the intent was of America's founding fathers based on what they wrote and signed off on. Church historians do this with the early church fathers because of the weight that their opinions carry. Of course, ultimately each man will give an account for how he lived his life according to the word of God, the commands of Jesus.........bro Frank

 2013/10/15 9:40
MaryJane
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Joined: 2006/7/31
Posts: 3057


 Re:

Of course, ultimately each man will give an account for how he lived his life according to the word of God, the commands of Jesus.........bro Frank

________________________

I think this is so very important to consider in all of this. Sometimes we get so caught up in following after men we forget that JESUS is our example. It is after all HIS life we are to reflect back to others.

Thank you for sharing this Frank very good reminder

God bless
maryjane

 2013/10/15 9:51Profile









 Re:

Marcellus, ?-298 A.D.

“I threw down my arms for it was not seemly that a Christian man, who renders military service to the Lord Christ, should render it by earthly injuries.” “It is not lawful for a Christian to bear arms for any earthly consideration.”

Irenaeus, approx. 180 A.D.

“Christians have changed their swords and their lances into instruments of peace, and they know not now how to fight.”

Justin Martyr, approx. 138 A.D.

“The devil is the author of all war.” “We, who used to kill one another, do not make war on our enemies. We refuse to tell lies or deceive our inquisitors; we prefer to die acknowledging Christ.”

Tertullian, 155-230 A.D.

“But now inquiry is being made concerning these issues. First, can any believer enlist in the military? Second, can any soldier, even those of the rank and file or lesser grades who neither engage in pagan sacrifices nor capital punishment, be admitted into the church? No on both counts—for there is no agreement between the divine sacrament and the human sacrament, the standard of Christ and the standard of the devil, the camp of light and the camp of darkness. One soul cannot serve two masters—God and Caesar…But how will a Christian engage in war—indeed, how will a Christian even engage in military service during peacetime—without the sword, which the Lord has taken away? For although soldiers had approached John to receive instructions and a centurion believed, this does not change the fact that afterward, the Lord, by disarming Peter, disarmed every soldier.Under no circumstances should a true Christian draw the sword.”

Origen of Alexandria, 185-254 A.D.

“We have come in accordance with the counsel of Jesus to cut down our arrogant swords of argument into plowshares, and we convert into sickles the spears we formerly used in fighting. For we no longer take swords against a nation, nor do we learn anymore to make war, having become sons of peace for the sake of Jesus, who is our Lord.”

Hippolytus, 170-236 A.D.

“A soldier, being inferior in rank to God, must not kill anyone. If ordered to, he must not carry out the order, nor may he take an oath (sacramentum) to do so. If he does not accept this, let him be dismissed from the church. Anyone bearing the power of the sword, or any city magistrate, who wears purple, let him cease from wearing it at once or be dismissed from the church. Any catechumen or believer who wishes to become a soldier must be dismissed from the church because they have despised God.A person who has accepted the power of killing, or a soldier, may never be received [into the church] at all.”

Cyprian, approx. 250 A.D.

“[Christians] are not allowed to kill, but they must be ready to be put to death themselves… it is not permitted the guiltless to put even the guilty to death.” “God wished iron to be used for the cultivation of the earth, and therefore it should not be used to take human life.”

These are just a few quotes, but here is an undeniable fact, not one early church father, prior to Constantine, taught that Christians could be soldiers, in fact they condemned it. Something to think about........bro Frank













 2013/10/15 9:55
proudpapa
Member



Joined: 2012/5/13
Posts: 2936


 Re:

Hi appolus

appolus wrote : ///There are men's opinions and then there is Scripture. We are not measured by men's opinions but by the Word of God which never changes even if Constantine becomes a " Christian," and needs a theology that permits him to continue building an empire or kingdom here on earth.///

This is absolutly correct and the issue that we are disscussing has been held on both sides by sincere Godly Spirit filled men whom have searched the Scriptures dilligently as what we are doing , and as us, they have come to seperate conclusions.

Brother rather or not you are humble enough to admitt it, your view is an opinion, it is not as cut and dry as you would like it to be.

Mens interpretation of Scripture such as Finney and Chambers holds just as much wait and in reality In my view much more wait than does yours brother.

It is very nauseating when brothers take a position that is held on both sides by Spirit filled sincere bible believing Brothers. and they lift themselves above the other and condemn the other because of doctrine.




 2013/10/15 10:33Profile









 Re:

Then Bro. PP you will have to carry out your logic to Calvin, Luther.and Cromwell. There are many, particularly the Reformed faith, who held that these were sincere godly men who believed that society be ruled by church and state. John Knox said that Calvin's Geneva was the best place for a Protestant to be. Knox likened Geneva to a school if the early Apostles.

Yet Calvin, had Sevetus burned at the stake for heresy. Though defenders of Calvin debate his role in the matter. We know that Calvin, Luther, and and other state church Reformers regarded the Anabaptist that you admire as heretics. Many of them were burned st the stake, drowned, or were hung by the Reformed state church governments.

Shall we talk of Puritain New England and their treatment of Roger Williams of Ann Hutchins. Shall we talk of the Salem witch trials and how many young innocent women were put to death on charges of being a witch. Very similar to the Pakistani Moslems who can charge a Christian for blasphemy against the Prophet Mohamed on the slightest pretense.

This is the government you speak of that sincere, Spirit-filled Christians believe that is just.

Respectfully Bearmaster.

 2013/10/15 11:23
proudpapa
Member



Joined: 2012/5/13
Posts: 2936


 Re:

RE: ///These are just a few quotes, but here is an undeniable fact, not one early church father, prior to Constantine, taught that Christians could be soldiers, in fact they condemned it. Something to think about........bro Frank ///

that is also debatable

"Protestant church historians such as Philip Schaff, Harnack, McGiffert, Moffat, Lee, Frend, and archeologists such as Sir William Ramsey have also made a special study of the early church in this regard. They have come away convinced that the pacifists have overstated their case and ignored significant evidence that Christians were involved in the military from the apostolic period to Constantine."
http://www.churchinhistory.org/pages/misc/ch-war-pac.htm

 2013/10/15 11:26Profile





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