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RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
Anyone hear not need the blood any more?



I conclude that I need Christ's more than I need my own.


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Robert Wurtz II

 2005/3/26 22:25Profile
npautsky
Member



Joined: 2003/9/10
Posts: 82
Texas

 Re:

David Wilkerson does point out about I John 1:7

But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

That is mercy and truth have met together. He does point out that walking in the light is needed in order to benefit from the blood of Jesus. A Jew roaming around in the street on the night of passover in Egypt would have surely died for disobeying Gods word tho the blood was on his house.(EDIT The part about the roaming Jew is from me and not from Wilkerson and in fact may be wrong. However this does not change the above stated principle).
I make no claim to sinlessness and I am still trying to define holiness, but I do believe that God honours the soul who abhors evil and by faith in his promises fights a daily war with sin unto victory. One thing is certain, if a person genuinely believes the Gospel they will be transformed from glory to glory overcoming every sinful thing that stands in the way. Didn't Moses say No man shall be able to stand against you?

About the justified by sanctification thing, it boggles my mind how anybody could believe anything different after reading all the parables which point to that very thing.

Also concerning the bizarre preoccupation with sinlessness. I can't fathom how anybody could want any thing less than No Sin At Any Time after reading "The soul that sinneth, it shall die" and in I John 3:8 where it says "He that committeth sin is of the devil". Having a goal of being sinless doesn't seem the least bit bizarre to me.


_________________
Noel Pautsky

 2005/3/26 22:49Profile









 Re:

That is a good word from Wilkerson.

Ravenhill said in a video interview words that still ring true to my ears "You can't preach sinless perfection now-a-days, the people will laugh at you! Why?"

So long as we are all "perfecting holiness in the fear of God" (1 Co 7:1 ) then we are in the will of God.

 2005/3/26 23:44
jeremyhulsey
Member



Joined: 2003/4/18
Posts: 777


 Re:

Hi npautsky,

Quote:
About the justified by sanctification thing, it boggles my mind how anybody could believe anything different after reading all the parables which point to that very thing.



Can you please show us which parable teaches justification by sancification?

The way I've always understood it, I'm positionaly, and judicially justified by the substitutionary sacrifice of Jesus Christ.

I don't think any of us disagree on the need to live holy lives, but on how we do such a thing and the purpose of it.

In Christ,
Jeremy Hulsey


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Jeremy Hulsey

 2005/3/27 0:05Profile
npautsky
Member



Joined: 2003/9/10
Posts: 82
Texas

 Re:

Hello,

Lets look at the Parable of the Sower in Matthew 13:18-23. First things first, these are the words of Jesus Christ and by the very nature of things they take precedent over any of the epistles and so forth. That is the statements of Paul and the Apostles need to be filtered through what Jesus taught. For we can be sure the words of Jesus were in the forefront of their minds when they were teaching other things.

I said lets look at Matthew's version but if you take all three versions of the parable of the sower, you come up with 8 warnings, 8 things that will stop you from bearing fruit.

1. Temptation
2. Affliction because of the word.
3. Tribulation because of the word.
4. Persecution because of the word.
5. Cares of this world.
6. Lust for other things.
7. Deceitfulness of riches.
8. Pleasures of this life.

BEARING FRUIT

Jesus told the Jews that the kingdom of God would be taken from them and given to them bearing the fruits therof.

Romans 8:22

But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

Colossians 1: 5,6

For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of truth of the Gospel; Which is come unto you as it is in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as it doth also in you since the day ye heard it , and knew the grace of God in truth.

The Parable of the Sower and Jesus talking to the Jews about fruit and Paul in Romans and in Colossians are all hitting on the same subject. We can call it many things but Fruit unto Holiness seems to be a reasonable way to define what each text is talking about. I mean Righteousness and Holiness is what the Gospel is about isn't it? Turning from the power of satan and sin unto the power of God and righteousness.

The 8 things Jesus teaches above encompasses just about all unholy ways of living.

Jesus clearly said if a man hears his words and does them his house will stand(Salvation). But if he hears his words and does them not his house shall fall(Hell).

Take the oil in the lamp or the wicked servant whose master is gone on a long journey or the men given the talents to occupy until he comes or the wise and foolish virgins.
(Correction Edit- The oil in the lamp and the foolish virgins are in the same story and were mistakenly separated).

These all speak to born again baptised in the Spirit Christians who know about the blood of Jesus and faith and all the teachings of Paul and the apostles. Yet even so they are warnings to live holy, to be faithful servants to the Lord. For what do faithful servants of a Holy God do? The Grace of God that brings salvation to all men has appeared teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts we should live soberly, righteously and godly , in this present world.Titus 2:11,12

It is foolish quote Paul in Ephesians saying For by grace are ye saved though faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works lest any man should boast. To take that and then to ignore Jesus warning not to build your house on sand because that might be a self justifying work of the flesh. My how satan has twisted things over the years. He is just like a lawyer once something is in print and unchangable then they can go to work with their wordsmithing, twisting this, and subtly changing that, until the whole spirit of what is said is lost. I believe this is pretty much the case of modern Christendom. The whole thing has been confused by some silly acceptance prayer that is suppose to put a smiling picture of Jesus on your heart so that when God looks at you he doesn't see any of your evil works but only Jesus smilin face, at least thats the way Keith Green put it and I think he is right about that part.

What do the parables mean to you, how do you read them? They all look like strong directives to holy living to me to which the failing to obey brings destruction to the foolish.

I have no idea how many theological toes I am stepping on here. I know the word of God is true and that satan has succeeded in introducing many lies into what we call protestant Christianity today, to the point where people will blindly accept many arguments that clearly contradict the word of God but by some means of intellectual mental gymnastics they are able to believe all kinds of foolish unscriptural things.
Hope this sheds a little light on what I was saying about only the sanctified being justified.




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Noel Pautsky

 2005/3/27 1:18Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
The silence is deafening...


I want to raise my voice to say that Jesus Christ is a perfect Saviour, and able to do all that He has promised to do. I do not hold with testimonies to 'entire sanctification' but I know many who bear witness to Entire Sanctifier.


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Ron Bailey

 2005/3/27 3:57Profile
Compton
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 2732


 Re: All of Jesus' Words

Quote:
I don't think any of us disagree on the need to live holy lives, but on how we do such a thing and the purpose of it.


Agreed. To argue as if some of us don't believe in the need to live as holy is shadow boxing. The tone of this thread shouldn't be confrontation, but contemplation.
Quote:
Lets look at the Parable of the Sower in Matthew 13:18-23. First things first, these are the words of Jesus Christ and by the very nature of things they take precedent over any of the epistles and so forth. That is the statements of Paul and the Apostles need to be filtered through what Jesus taught.

I have no idea how many theological toes I am stepping on here...


Brother, the only theological toes I don't care to step on are those of Jesus. I fear your statement reveals a basic misapprehension in the divine authority of the epistles inspired by Him. I do not say this to hurt or belittle, but to encourage. It is a grievous error to assume that the words of Jesus are after all more important, and therefore more binding, than the words of the Apostles. I believe it is worth taking a small detour before looking at the parables, to address this serious misconception, because nothing less then a full understanding of Gods' plan for salvation is at stake. First things first indeed!

About a hundred years ago some bible publisher came up with the marketing idea of printing in red ink all of the words that Jesus spoke as the God-Man through his human larynx. Although this seemed like a reverent idea, true reverence would call for the entire bible to be printed in red ink.

Consider Jesus' promise to the apostles. Jesus spoke to his disciples just before His suffering and crucifixion. (John 14,15, 16 Among the instructions which Jesus gave to the apostles, was a pre-authentication of the entire New Testament. John 14:26 and John 16:13 are the key passages. In those two portions of Scripture Jesus promised that He would send the Holy Spirit who will do three things:

a) "bring to your remembrance all that / have said to you"--that is, events associated with the life and death of Christ as we find them in the Gospel accounts.

b) "will teach you (explain to you) all things"-that is, the Holy Spirit will give you an interpretation of the divine and historical facts as we find them in the Epistles.

c) "will show you things to come"--that is, the Holy Spirit will show the great events associated with the end of the age, as we find them in the Revelation.

Jesus promised these things to His apostles just before His death, resurrection, and ascension into heaven. And so the New Testament is not a record based on the fallible memories or theology of the human apostles, but the entire New Testament contains the Truth which is a revelation of the infallible Holy Spirit. This promise of the Holy Spirit's oversight includes the epistles of Paul. Jesus said to the apostles, just before He ascended into Heaven, that what they recorded would be superintended by the divine Comforter, the Holy Spirit. Thus what the apostles wrote was pre-authenticated by Jesus.

The Apostle Paul himself claims divine inspiration from Jesus for his writings. The Gospel which Paul preached was not of human origin, but it was received directly from the Lord. He says, "For I would have you know that the gospel which was preached by me, is not according to man. For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but I received it through a revelation of Jesus Christ" (Galatians 1:11-12). This is an emphatic statement which insists that Paul's message is completely divine in nature. He received it as a direct revelation from Christ, not as a tradition handed down from the past.

Another aspect of Paul's own testimony is found in 1 Thessalonians 2:13. In the first letter Paul ever wrote to a new congregation, he thanked God that the message he preached was accepted "not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God." Paul was conscious of the fact that the authority by which he spoke was divinely imparted.

In 1 Corinthians 14:37. The testimony of Paul is this: "The things which I write to you are the commandments of the Lord." That is a strongly worded statement, that everything he taught about God, about the Gospel, and about the church--was God's own teaching. The things which I write unto you, says Paul, are the commandments of the Lord.

Notice that Peter (2 Peter 3:16) considered the letters of Paul a part of the "scriptures"--the God-inspired sacred writings. And Peter refers to those who quibbled about the authority of Paul's writings as being spiritually illiterate and undependable! This is an important insight which tells how the early church viewed the writings of Paul and the other apostles. Paul's letters were placed on a par with "the other scriptures." What Paul had to say was accepted as the Word of God. Christian writings (including Paul's letters) were being read in churches (alongside the Old Testament), and these were rated as equal in value to the Psalms, the Pentateuch, and the Prophets.

Let's return back to "Jesus'" words. How is it that we have the words he spoke? Jesus didn't write or publish anything per se. In fact the gospels that carry his words, bear the name of their authors Matther, Mark, Luke and John. Matthew and John became apostles, while Mark and Luke were Paul's helpers. It is important to know how these men were able to write what they wrote.

Obviously they heard many of Jesus' saying themselves, or wrote down first hand accounts. But there are examples where even Jesus' human words were revealed directly by the Holy Spirit---not by Jesus the man. For example, there is no way that anyone could humanly ever know the words that Jesus prayed in the Garden of Gethsemane-- because the disciples were asleep--and no one else was around. The words, "Father, I pray, Remove this cup from me" [Luke 22:42] had to be revealed to the New Testament writers by direct revelation.

The bottom line is that Jesus would have us esteem all of scripture as His word, including the witness of Peter, and the testimony of Paul. If we don't, we may find ourselves struggling to rest within an incomplete gospel. What the epistles convey to the church is indeed the words of Christ, and we had better learn and preach all of it.

MC

(Notes from Harold S. Martin)



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Mike Compton

 2005/3/27 14:53Profile
npautsky
Member



Joined: 2003/9/10
Posts: 82
Texas

 Re:

Hello,

Happy Resurrection Day.

Of course every word between Genesis and Revelation is divinely inspired and should be given full weight as the holy word of God.

Nevertheless I will stand by what I've already said. You are free to disagree.


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Noel Pautsky

 2005/3/27 15:33Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
About a hundred years ago some bible publisher came up with the marketing idea of printing in red ink all of the words that Jesus spoke as the God-Man through his human larynx. Although this seemed like a reverent idea, true reverence would call for the entire bible to be printed in red ink.


Amen!! I sometimes ask the question when preaching; "do you have one of those bibles with the words of Jesus in red?". and then add "...I have a bible where all the words of the Holy Spirit are in black!"


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Ron Bailey

 2005/3/27 16:19Profile
Compton
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Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 2732


 Re: Sower Parable and Justification

Quote:
About the justified by sanctification thing, it boggles my mind how anybody could believe anything different after reading all the parables which point to that very thing....only the sanctified being justified.


You seem to be predicating justification upon our santification. To address this I feel it important to note one of my favorite rules when reading scripture: let the explicit explain the implicit. Having said that, let me respect your request and consider the Parable of the Sower and how it might relate to the issue of whether we are Justified according to the measure of our Sanctification.

The Parable of the Sower is given in Matthew chapter 13: 1-9. Matthews' overarching theme is that Jesus is the promised Jewish messianic king. This is vital to our discussion because we cannot approach Jesus as a mere teacher who founded Christianity...He is the foundation of Christianity. You say we should not ignore Jesus' warning about foolishly building our house upon sand? Then build your house upon the rock. Not only did he fulfill the messianic promises, but he also fulfilled the failed lives of those before him.

From His geneology we see he is the promised King to restore and sit on Davids failed throne. He proved to be the perfect Israel that passed the test in the desert, where the historic Israel failed their test. We could go on, but my point is that Jesus did not come only to lay righteous expectations upon us. Any prophet could have done that. Jesus came to lay righteous foundations under us.

Not just us but all those before us who put their hope in Him. Abraham, Moses, and David were all justified by the atonement of Jesus Christ. This is the significance of Matthew's gospel! Matthew is saying..."Rejoice brothers for this is He whom the scriptures foretold. Rejoice Israel for in Jesus all of the promises of God are fulfilled!"

The Parable of the Sower is explained in Matthew 13:18-23. The seed is Jesus' word that falls on three types of hearts; the stony unyielding heart, the thorny unstable heart, and the soft embracing heart. By boiling this parable down to 8 universal ways we can fall away you have cut out the heart of the parable. Jesus is asking which heart category are you in? For instance, by grace I am in the soft heart category...I heard the Word and understood it and began producing fruit.

(Of course, in Jesus' time, many Jews were sadly in the stony heart category...even so Jesus is merciful to them. Israel's rejection was not final. Romans 11)

I believe we find an application of the Parable of the Sower in Hebrews 6:7-12.

The Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God. But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned.

Clearly we should learn what this sober metaphor actually means. Lord let us be that land that drinks in the rain! What is this "crop useful to those for whom it is farmed" referring to? What follows is not more cryptic mystery, but something simple and very assurring.

Even though we speak like this, dear friends, we are confident of better things in your case–things that accompany salvation. God is not unjust; he will not forget your work and the love you have shown him as you have helped his people and continue to help them. We want each of you to show this same diligence to the very end, in order to make your hope sure. We do not want you to become lazy, but to imitate those who through faith and patience inherit what has been promised.

In this case, the crop is love for the saints. Here is an example of "faith with works". Do we claim to Love Jesus? Then we should feed His sheep! (Ezekial 34, John 21)If we are to have a preoccupation that demonstrates Love for Jesus, it isn't merely "sinlessness" but it is love for His flock! Even if it means persecution or death.

It is at this point that I must point out we have overlooked an important ingredient in both scriptures; namely the rain. For an understanding of what the rain is we can look to the promise of Isaiah 44. For I will pour water on the thirsty land, and streams on the dry ground; I will pour out my Spirit on your offspring, and my blessing on your descendants. They will spring up like grass in a meadow, like poplar trees by flowing streams. One will say, 'I belong to the LORD ';another will call himself by the name of Jacob; still another will write on his hand, 'The LORD's,' and will take the name Israel.

You see, true Justification and sanctification is a promise from the Lord garanteed with the deposit of His Spirit in us. We can not think that works or fruit make us holy. If you won't believe Paul, maybe you'll believe John Wesley. This is from a sermon he gave at Oxford called "The Almost Christian."

"I did for many years, as many of this place can testify; using diligence to eschew all evil, and to have a conscience void of offence; redeeming the time; buying up every opportunity of doing all good to all men; constantly and carefully using all the public and private means of grace; endeavoring, after a steady seriousness of behavior, at all times, and in all places: and God is my record, before whom I stand, doing all this in sincerity; having a real design to serve God; a hearty desire to do His will in all things; to please Him who had called me to "fight the good fight," and to "lay hold on eternal life." Yet my own conscience bears me witness, in the Holy Ghost, that all this time I was but almost a Christian.

"May we thus all experience what it is, to be not only almost, but altogether Christians! Being justified freely by His grace, through the redemption that is in Jesus: knowing we have peace with God through Jesus Christ: rejoicing in hope of the glory of God, and having the love of God shed abroad in our hearts, by the Holy Ghost given to us!"

I have looked at the Parable of the Sower and I feel satisfied that it is not a tool of dispair but of encouragement by the Holy Spirit. It is designed to let us identify the presence and work of the Holy Spirit in our lives. So, here is the conclusion I draw regarding the Parable of the Sower: We shouldn't presume to curse the ground, but instead cherish the seed, share the existing fruit, and above all, pray for more rain.

Blessings,

MC


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Mike Compton

 2005/3/27 21:07Profile





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