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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : 63 Questions for those who oppose holiness

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dann
Member



Joined: 2005/2/16
Posts: 239
Winnipeg, Manitoba Canada

 Re:

Quote:

Lazarus1719 wrote:
I have a genuine question. What exactly is the Christian standard, or the moral goal?



I would expect the Christian standard is to be in a continual state of fellowship with God.

One cannot fellowship with God and with sin at the same time - so, in order to fellowship with God, one must be delivered from -all- known sin.

Some are teaching that until you have experienced freedom from every known sin you have not repented and are therefore not yet saved. I take umbrage at this particular interpretation because it makes sanctification the doorway into justification.

Others teach that at the moment of justification every believer receives the Holy Spirit and that the Holy Spirit immediately begins the ministry of sanctifying the believer - for the expressed purpose of preparing that believer to fellowship with Christ and God.

The problem seems to be that modern Christianity is being taught justification by grace through faith - and is leaving out how one is sanctified. The result is that genuine and soundly saved Christians are not being cleansed from their sins because they don't know that they can be cleansed - they remain in Romans seven and 1 John 1:9 - sinning, confessing their sin, and repenting - but never exerting faith to have their hearts cleansed by faith.

I don't think that perfection is the goal - rather fellowship with God is the goal, and the more sanctified a believer is, the closer that fellowship can be. If my focus is on perfection itself, it isn't on God - though the distinction may be more technical than experiential.

In any case, my greatest concern is that presenting sanctification as the path to justification is not an accurate gospel presentation. When the Christians at Corinth were still carnal Paul encourages them in this way, "Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own?" (1 Corinthians 6:19) The Spirit doesn't indwell unsaved people. They were carnal - they were not experiencing freedom - but Paul seems to think they were saved - and frankly, so do I.

To promote the idea that less mature believers are not saved, is less than charitable. And to put such a stumbling block before them, well, it is less than sinless.

Dan
/\/
\/\


_________________
Daniel van de Laar

 2005/3/24 15:42Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
Some are teaching that until you have experienced freedom from every known sin you have not repented and are therefore not yet saved. I take umbrage at this particular interpretation because it makes sanctification the doorway into justification.


dann
you are right, and we must resist the doctrine of 'justification by sanctification' like the plague!


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2005/3/24 16:00Profile









 Re:

Thanks guys.

Any chance on having someone tackle any of the 63 questions?

 2005/3/24 16:04
PreachParsly
Member



Joined: 2005/1/14
Posts: 2164
Arkansas

 Re:

ignore this i read a post wrong and posted something that had nothing to to with anything sorry... :-P


_________________
Josh Parsley

 2005/3/24 20:27Profile
IRONMAN
Member



Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Re:

63 you say?


_________________
Farai Bamu

 2005/3/24 20:33Profile
npautsky
Member



Joined: 2003/9/10
Posts: 82
Texas

 Re: 63 Questions for those who oppose holiness

Hello Lazarus,

Here are a few more for your list.

What is meant by:

I Samuel 15:13

And Samuel came to Saul: and Saul said unto him, Blessed be thou of the Lord: I have performed the commandment of the Lord.

(For those who might not remember, the Lord said to kill every thing that breathes. Saul did most of what God said but saved the livestock and the King alive).

Things didn't go well for Samuel because of his misunderstanding of the true nature of God.



King David says in the Psalms

Psalms 18:37,42

I have pursued mine enemies, and overtaken them: neither did I turn again till they were consumed.
Then did I beat them small as the dust before the wind: I did cast them out as dirt in the streets.

The enemies of God and his people in those days were real people.

The enemy of God and his people today is sin.

We can be like David and fight the enemy tooth and nail with faith that God will give us the victory or we can be like Saul and do a 90% job of it and say I have done the will of the Lord.




Isaiah 62:1
For Zion's sake will I not hold may peace, and for Jerusalem's sake I will not rest, until the righteousness thereof go forth as brightness, and the salvation therof as a lamp that burneth.

Luke 11:34-36
The light of the body is the eye: therefore when thine eye is single, thy whole body also is full of light, but when thine eye is evil, thy body is also full of darkness.

Take heed therefore that the light which is in thee be not darkness.

If the whole body therefore be full of light, having no part dark, the whole shall be full of light, as when the bright shining of a candle doth give thee light. (No part dark).

I Thessalonians 2:10
Ye are witnesses, and God also, how holily and justily and unblameably we behaved ourselves among you that believe. (Note the realtime holiness Paul describes here).

Ephesians 4:27
Neither give place to the devil.



In another place you ask what is the goal. I believe in my life and all who are called to serve Christ the goal is NO SIN AT ANY TIME, Love , Holiness, Faith. One fellow mentioned knowing God as the goal, that's great but if you are willing to tolerate any sin to lay on the conscience then you are not going to know much at all about God outside of the imaginary version you've made up who is willing to put up with your sins. Right off people will say oh how arrogant to think you can live that way. Well, it is the promise of God and it is our birthright. Not by our own power but by the same power that divided the Red Sea, by the same power that David ran through a troop and lept over a wall, by the same power that raised Jesus from the dead, by that power we can be enabled to live a holy life, if we pray day and night for that grace as counseled by the Lord. Are we going to be like Joshua and Caleb and fight the giants (they would still need to fight even after they made the couragous decision to go into the land) or are we going to be like the the rest of Gods people who said that there is no way to do that, it is impossible, we are grasshoppers in their sight and the cities are walled up to heaven? Gods own people didn't make it the first time around because of their unbelief. It's either time to fight the giants or start picking up stones to stone the fanatics, it's our choice. This is pretty much how it lays in my mind. Thanks a lot for posting your message, it is encouraging and means a lot to me. By the way if anyone disagrees with this that is fine, but please don't presume to teach me something different, something a little more reasonable, a little more compromised, because I don't want to hear it, I've heard enough of it already.

To freecd about the writing on holiness by Mclaughlin. Amen.


_________________
Noel Pautsky

 2005/3/26 18:59Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
you are right, and we must resist the doctrine of 'justification by sanctification' like the plague!



Amen!


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2005/3/26 20:14Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
In another place you ask what is the goal. I believe in my life and all who are called to serve Christ the goal is NO SIN AT ANY TIME, Love , Holiness, Faith. One fellow mentioned knowing God as the goal, that's great but if you are willing to tolerate any sin to lay on the conscience then you are not going to know much at all about God outside of the imaginary version you've made up who is willing to put up with your sins. Right off people will say oh how arrogant to think you can live that way.



I don't see this thinking as arrogance, but ignorance. Not only that, but there is an almost bizarre preoccupation with 'sinlessness' when the true goal as that we walk in the Spirit with a clear conscience. This I will ask those who are teach these things; which of you walk absolutely in your teaching? How many are sinless? I will hear you out. I am not interested in any more theories, I want to hear from someone who is walking in perpetual holiness before God in a totally sinless state. I see all the questions, but I want to see and hear the evidence! Jesus asked once, "Which one of you convinceth me of sin?" Can anyone here boast of such a statement just in the last year? Can anyone say they have not sinned in the last year? I am big on Christian Perfection myself- but I am under absolutely no illusions of my need for the blood of Jesus Christ. Anyone hear not need the blood any more?


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2005/3/26 20:29Profile
Compton
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 2732


 Re: sinless?

For all of the ranting and raving about how other Christians are guilty of opposing holiness, this is the pertinent question.

Quote:
I want to hear from someone who is walking in perpetual holiness before God in a totally sinless state. I see all the questions, but I want to see and hear the evidence! Jesus asked once, "Which one of you convinceth me of sin?" Can anyone here boast of such a statement just in the last year?...Anyone here not need the blood any more?















The silence is deafening...


_________________
Mike Compton

 2005/3/26 21:20Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Oh the silence... but I hear the voice of the blood crying for MERCY!

Nothing But The Blood

What can wash away my sin? Nothing but the blood of Jesus. What can make me whole again? Nothing but the blood of Jesus. Oh! precious is the flow, that makes me white as snow; No other fount I know, nothing but the blood of Jesus. For my pardon, this I see, Nothing but the blood of Jesus; For my cleansing this my plea, Nothing but the blood of Jesus. Nothing can for sin atone, Nothing but the blood of Jesus; naught of good that I have done, nothing but the blood of Jesus. This is all my hope and peace, nothing but the blood of Jesus; this is all my righteousness, nothing but the blood of Jesus. Now by this I’ll overcome— Nothing but the blood of Jesus, Now by this I’ll reach my home— Nothing but the blood of Jesus. Glory! Glory! This I sing— Nothing but the blood of Jesus, All my praise for this I bring— Nothing but the blood of Jesus.


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2005/3/26 22:06Profile





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