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ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4501


 Re:

I am not sure that we should even assume any message, just-in.

There are many other issues that are discussed at length on SermonIndex. It seems to me that the "issues" threads where people with varying and different perspectives on certain issues or doctrines tend to attract the most amount of discussions in terms of actual posts.

This was merely a discussion as elicited by the original poster. People shared their views because they were asked to. I don't think that anyone got "carried away" with bitterness, strife or wayward assumptions.

I certainly don't think that entering into this discussion should be an indictment on whether or not those believers care about people, other issues or long for God to move in their lives.



_________________
Christopher

 2013/7/11 14:07Profile









 Re:

Just making a personal observation, Chris.

Walking with Christ seems to take a back seat to rules and regulations. That's all. Not indicting anyone.

 2013/7/11 14:42
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4501


 Re:

Hi just-in,

I understand what you're saying. The Gospel is not made up of rules and regulations. Christ didn't replace the Old Covenant rules and regulations with a somewhat smaller and less comprehensive set of rules and regulations. There is liberty apart from the Law in Christ Jesus. It is found in the law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus.

However, I hope that you also understand that those who might urge caution or even adhere to (and share) a particular concern about professing believers seeking a tattoo are not somehow adhering to "rules and regulations."

Jesus explained the purpose of the Law on the Mount of Olives. While the Law had rules for just about everything, Jesus "condensed" them to, as someone described, the "condition of the heart." If a person isn't lustful, he won't commit adultery. If a person isn't bitter and hateful, he won't murder. The principle stands even before the Law.

I have met churchgoers who freely use profanity, smoke, drink (and not just in moderation), watch/read all sorts of filth, wear the most immodest of clothes (e.g., yoga pants, "daisy duke" shorts, bikini tops, etc...), and even argue for the legalization of marijuana. Whenever these things are discussed, they often become annoyed and adhere to a "we aren't under the law" or "there is freedom in Christ Jesus" argument.

For me, the principle is what matters most. Even apart from my concerns about what permanent alterations are done to the "Temple of the Holy Spirit" (which belongs to God), I am a bit more perplexed by the underlying motivation.

What would motivate or compel someone to permanently etch something into the body that God is lending them?

I can't pretend to know the answer. However, when I consider motivation AND the New Testament admonition about a person's physical body, I come to a conclusion that a believer shouldn't seek a tattoo (at least until they get a clear "okay" from God). As for those who already had existing tattoos, I would count it as "B.C." history. At the same time, I wouldn't treat a believer that I know with tattoos any differently.

For me, this really isn't about "rules" or "regulations" at all. I hope that this makes much more sense. Sometimes, what I write is not as clear as I hope it to be.

The Lord bless you and keep you!


_________________
Christopher

 2013/7/11 15:23Profile









 Re:

Chris says,

Quote:
What would motivate or compel someone to permanently etch something into the body that God is lending them?

I can't pretend to know the answer.



Very well, said, I certainly can't improve on that statement.

Quote:
However, I hope that you also understand that those who might urge caution or even adhere to (and share) a particular concern about professing believers seeking a tattoo are not somehow adhering to "rules and regulations."



"urging caution" as you say, (and you say it a lot) can sometimes be a code phrase for "watch out for that guy".

Quote:
I have met churchgoers who freely use profanity, smoke, drink (and not just in moderation), watch/read all sorts of filth, wear the most immodest of clothes (e.g., yoga pants, "daisy duke" shorts, bikini tops, etc...), and even argue for the legalization of marijuana. Whenever these things are discussed, they often become annoyed and adhere to a "we aren't under the law" or "there is freedom in Christ Jesus" argument.



What's a "churchgoer"?

Quote:
Jesus explained the purpose of the Law on the Mount of Olives. While the Law had rules for just about everything, Jesus "condensed" them to, as someone described, the "condition of the heart." If a person isn't lustful, he won't commit adultery. If a person isn't bitter and hateful, he won't murder. The principle stands even before the Law.



The law had rules and penalties. Let's not penalize people for not fitting into our rules.

 2013/7/11 15:40
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4501


 Re:

Hi just-in,

Quote:

"Urging caution" as you say, (and you say it a lot) can sometimes be a code phrase for "watch out for that guy".



I suppose that it can be...but in dealing with some other issue and with some other person. I have no problem with urging caution just as I have no problem receiving someone's words that urge caution.

In this case, it has nothing to do with a person or "watching out" for any person. It is simply about an ACTION and whether or not it is wise to participate in it.

The original poster asked a question. People responded to that question. No one here said that we should avoid individuals who have gotten tattoos. Most who urged caution (yes, I was not the only person -- because "caution" was urged on both sides of the issue) in regard to tattoos were speaking of current believers getting a new tattoo.

Quote:

What's a "churchgoer"?



A person who attends a church. This is different from a person who is part of the Church as defined by the Word of God.

Many people are "churchgoers" -- including people who have never repented or placed their faith in Christ. Since I have heard individuals who went to church but confided that they questioned their relationship with God and also did the aforementioned things (e.g., getting drunk), I didn't place them in the "believer" category.

Quote:

The law had rules and penalties. Let's not penalize people for not fitting into our rules.



What does this even mean? Who is setting up their "own rules?" What rules are those? What people are being "penalized?"

It almost seems that you're insinuating that anyone who shares something that they feel -- after being asked about it -- that they have learned or perceived from the Word of God is somehow "penalizing people" for not fitting into their own "rules." You could take this same sort of warning and apply it to EVERY discussion in SermonIndex and elsewhere.

There is no reason to turn the initial poster's question -- and subsequent responses -- into something that they are not. I didn't read any judgment or condemnation. It certainly wasn't my intent. In fact, I refrained from it altogether. I simply read a question where a person asked for input...and I replied. The same is true of others. People are simply responding to a question about tattoos.


_________________
Christopher

 2013/7/11 17:10Profile









 Re:

Chris, lets not make unspoken or spoken rules (judging on appearance) that marginalize others (not worthy of your fellowship).

James 2

That's all.

 2013/7/11 17:22
Lysa
Member



Joined: 2008/10/25
Posts: 3403
This world is not my home anymore.

 Re: Can A Christian Have Tattoos?


You know, we all can't minister to "everybody." My personality will grate on some people's nerves as will some peoples personality will grate on mine. We are made to love one another. It was the Lord who made each one of us.

Some people will never see past my tattoos and that is why He made all of you who hate tattoos so you can minister to those! So be happy about it and praise God!

But please know that there are those who will never hear what you have to say because of "whatever" it is about you and just possibly that is where me and my friends come in!!!

In the end, I am nothing and you are nothing because it's God who gives the increase! (1 Cor 3.7)

God bless us all,
Lisa


_________________
Lisa

 2013/7/11 17:41Profile
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4501


 Re:

Hi just-in,

Quote:

Chris, lets not make unspoken or spoken rules (judging on appearance) that marginalize others (not worthy of your fellowship).

James 2

That's all.



I am not being facetious with this question, but did you actually see anyone here doing this?

I didn't see anyone "judging on appearance" or implying that others were "not worthy of your fellowship." Perhaps you can quote those specific instances?

The brother in the first post asked about getting TATTOOS.

All of us are able to separate the act of getting a tattoo marked into your body from the person who did it or considers doing it.

The question was whether a Christian can have a tattoo. I shared a different perspective -- considering whether or not a Christian should go out and get a tattoo. I shared my perspective -- not judging anyone -- and urged that believers considering such a think should wait until they received approval from the Owner of their physical temple (their body) before paying for such a permanent mark or alteration upon the Lord's temple.

I apologize if anything that I said sounded even remotely judgmental -- because that was neither in my heart nor the intent. At the same time, I didn't see anyone else that invoked some sort of marginalizing of others either.

We are brothers here. A brother asked a question and desired input. Things like this shouldn't "divide" the body. Yet, I don't think that anyone was really all that divisive with any responses to that question. They simply shared what they felt from their own prayerful study of Scriptures and walk with God.

Obviously, we do look through such things to the heart of the matter. That doesn't mean that we don't notice it or that we can't discuss it as brothers in a loving, civil tone. There can be strong disagreements without fellowship or love being broken.

As I tried to indicate, I do have strong feelings derived from my own searching of God's Word and walk with Him. I certainly wouldn't impose it upon others (although, thankfully, my wife and I are in agreement when it comes to my body and her body and the bodies of our future children).

I know believers who have tattoos. Most received them prior to coming to Christ or while they were young in the Lord. A few received them after becoming a Christian. I don't see them as "lesser" believers even if I may disagree with a believer getting a tattoo. I don't even think about it or bring it up...unless they ask my thoughts. I have never had any of them get angry or even frustrated when I share my thoughts about it. I guess that they know that I value them as a brother or sister. Besides, I'm sure that they may disagree with me about something too.


_________________
Christopher

 2013/7/11 18:22Profile









 Re:

Quote:
Chris, lets not make unspoken or spoken rules (judging on appearance) that marginalise others (not worthy of your fellowship). justin



This topic like so many others which essentially involves the conduct and behaviour of believers is bound to be somewhat difficult. What do you do when a brother or sister decides to tattoo themselves and you have a conviction that to do so is wrong? In the first instance I believe one has to decide whether this brother or sister really is of Christ. If you yourself do not know the answer to this, then what follows after the event is going to be muddled and will lead to confusion for everyone. If you have a witness that the brother or sister is truly born again then regardless as to what they do, one thing will not change……you will never be able to see them as an unbeliever. This does not mean that from time to time we do not exercise ourselves towards a brother or sister as though they were an unbeliever. It does mean that we will not condemn them and say they never did know Christ. The responsibility in the locality as to what to do when believers sin or else set such a bad example that they lead others away into worldliness lies in two places. The first in the local church with elders and the second in ones own home with regard to heads of households. In short I have a responsibility to be an example in my own home as head and this will in time mean saying and doing that which is seen as judgemental. In the church it is exactly the same for elders.

I have tattoos and have had from the age of 14 years. When I got saved I was in prison and I can tell you that tattoos are no bar to anything in prison. Yet after I was saved I experienced a profound sense of needing to cover my tattoos. This continued on and is still true today. It has nothing to do with shame or feeling condemned. It has everything to do with bearing witness of Christ and not causing stumbling. None of my children have tattoos and none of my family extended on either side have tattoos either. Those who love the Lord do not even see them even when on occasions they are exposed for practical reasons. One tattoo is a satanic dragon and the other is a norse warrior bearing a double headed axe and the cross of St George. They fill both my fore arms and would be really useful in making a good show of things were I minded to do so. Yet for all this they are but ink impregnated in the flesh which is perishing and passing away. So whether of shame or pride they are yet ink and flesh. Yet if shame or pride were to drive me it would be me walking in the flesh and not in the spirit.

Hence why the question regarding whether a believer ought to have tattoos is a senseless question if the asking does not reflect a reality. It is so typical of the vanity of conceit which fills so many minds to ask questions which carry no validity. If there is guilt due to having tattoos, or else in asking whether others should have them, there is concern, then asking is a good thing. But to ask for no other reason than intellectual vanity is a stumbling block. Sorry to be so plain speaking but this OP is simply creating senseless divisions for no good purpose. Have you been a whore? Then what do you know about whores? Yet if your son or daughter were to ask "shall I become a whore?" You already know the answer. I feel sure this is sufficiently plain enough to make the point. Don't judge [condemn or approve] what you cannot comprehend. On the other hand make righteous judgements on those things which you have the responsibility to judge otherwise you will see your own children fall away into the world. Before my daughter found her husband I took more than one young man for a drive to explain why he ought not to set his eye on my daughter. In both instances tattoos were at the heart of it. If a believer tattoos themselves they lack discernment. If they are already tattooed and come to Christ then they have a witness of which they ought not to be ashamed. The witness is to be hidden and not to boast. How much more then ought a believer not to take on more tattoos or new ones.

 2013/7/11 18:25









 Re:

It's always good to hear other opinions. I can certainly understand why you try to conceal your tattoos, amrkelly. Thank you for your provocative thoughts. By the way, tattoos are difficult to remove, besides being expensive. People should carefully consider (pray) them.

http://www.tat2removers.com/

 2013/7/11 19:52





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