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davidc
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Joined: 2010/8/15
Posts: 272
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 Re:

Thank you Phillip for your posts.
"Docs" asked:
"I suppose my main question is whether you believe those saved during the Tribulation will have Christ within them as the Church did at Pentecost "
And you replied:
"Only if there is a second Pentecost".
As this thread concerns "Beliefs accompanying the pre trib view", I can say that I believe that there will be another Pentecost after the Lord's coming, and the scriptures confirm this.
The day of Pentecost spoken of in Acts chap 2 was a glorious outpouring by the Father of the precious Holy Spirit for the bringing to birth the church of Christ and for me.
But the outpouring of the Holy Spirit, prophesied by Joel (Joel ch 2), and refered to by Peter, only had a part fulfillment in those days. The sun was not darkened or the moon turned to blood v31. There was indeed spiritual "blood and fire"v30, but the final fulfillment is reserved for the time of Christ' s reign in mount Zion and Jerusalem v32, when Jehovah shall be " in the midst of Israel" v27.
The whole time, from the coming of Christ to Zion to deliver His remnant, until the pouring out of the Holy Spirit is below:
(Joe 2:21) Fear not, O land; be glad and rejoice: for the LORD will do great things.
(Joe 2:22) Be not afraid, ye beasts of the field: for the pastures of the wilderness do spring, for the tree beareth her fruit, the fig tree and the vine do yield their strength.
(Joe 2:23) Be glad then, ye children of Zion, and rejoice in the LORD your God: for he hath given you the former rain moderately, and he will cause to come down for you the rain, the former rain, and the latter rain in the first month.
(Joe 2:24) And the floors shall be full of wheat, and the fats shall overflow with wine and oil.
(Joe 2:25) And I will restore to you the years that the locust hath eaten, the cankerworm, and the caterpiller, and the palmerworm, my great army which I sent among you.
(Joe 2:26) And ye shall eat in plenty, and be satisfied, and praise the name of the LORD your God, that hath dealt wondrously with you: and my people shall never be ashamed.
(Joe 2:27) And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am the LORD your God, and none else: and my people shall never be ashamed.

(Joe 2:28) And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:
(Joe 2:29) And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.
(Joe 2:30) And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.
(Joe 2:31) The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.
(Joe 2:32) And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.

In verse 23, He promises all the rains in the first month in order to restore the land after the locust armies He had sent during the trumpet judgements. They will eat and be satisfied and praise the name of Jehovah v26. He will be in their midst, and Israel, the children of Zion, will not be ashamed. v27.

And it shall come to pass that afterwards, The Spirit will be poured out on all flesh v 28. A second Pentecost, or the full fulfillment of the prophesy?

Daniel chap 12 v 11 also shows this same 30 day (in the first month) period until all the effects of the abomination of desolation are removed. And also a further 45 days. BLESSED is he that waiteth and cometh to the 1335 days.

This is my understanding of these scriptures and I am not asking all brethren to accept what I believe, but just to read the scriptures and understand for themselves.

David


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david

 2013/7/16 17:50Profile
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 Re: Reply for Christinyou

Formerly I wrote,

"Regarding the many raptures you speak of in your first paragraph. Those who came out of the tombs when Christ was raised were not raptured. They were resurrected but not translated, changed and glorified (I Cor 15:50-55) as will happen to all who believe in Christ at His coming."""

You replied,

Where did they go? Die again and back into the grave? I believe that they are with Christ and when He comes for His Church, pre tribulation, they will be with Him. Seems like to me that is a rapture.

Me: Well, these things may be true but it would be only speculation at this point as to whether or not they were translated and glorified according to I Cor 15:50-55 which is commonly associated with the rapture. Lazarus came forth from the grave after being resurrected and there is no record of Him being changed and glorified.

I asked,

"I'm not quite sure who you refer to when you say, "At His second coming, these are those that are with Him,..." Do you mean just people who will be on earth or do you mean those who came to faith in Christ during the final Tribulation? Are you saying that,"

- Believers in Christ before the pre-trib rapture have Christ "in" them while believers who come to faith after this rapture will only have Christ "with" them versus dwelling within them."

You replied,

"If those saved in the tribulation come out of the grave, resurrected, They will not be sitting in the heavenlies in Christ, they will be with Him on this earth again as when He came for His own and they received Him not. Those that receive Him on earth, will God put His Word in their hearts, etc."

Me: So because they were saved during the Tribulation and not before the pre-trib rapture they will not be able to partake of the same privileges of salvation as those in the Church? Why do pre-trib rapture advocates see such a dividing line for those saved before it and those saved after it?

I asked,

"I suppose my main question is whether you believe those saved during the Tribulation will have Christ within them as the Church did at Pentecost?'

You replied,

Only if there is a 2nd Pentecost. The coming of Jesus Christ for His Church, together they leave and the Holy Spirit also.

Me: How is it possible then for those saved during the Tribulation to really and truly be saved if they are not going to have the Holy Spirit dwelling within them? Would you consider yourselves saved if the Holy Spirit was not within you? This seems to be putting a whole new spin on salvation that was not heard of or likely even thought of before the 1830s. And where was it ever determined before then that a pre-tribulation rapture of the Church would nullify and cancel Pentecost for those who were saved after it? Is it even possible to be inwardly regenerated and born again without the indwelling Spirit? Where have those who study and research soteriology (the results and effects of salvation) ever advocated that throughout Church history? If these things be true then Tribulation believers seems to be destined for a second class second tier type of salvation. Pentecost and the Holy Spirit coming to dwell with is also based on the fact that Christ is at the right hand of God.

33 - "Therefore having been exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Farther the promise of the Holly Spirit, He has poured forth this which you both see and hear." (Acts 2:33)

If the rapture cancels and brings about a reversal of Pentecost because the Holy Spirt is to leave the earth at this event does it in any way effect or change the ministry of Christ seated at the right hand of God where He pours forth the Holy Spirit to those who believe in Him? It seems a legitimate question.

The Tribulation is seen to be perhaps the greatest time of soul winning and harvest the Church has ever been a part of. I know it is just my opinion but it seems a stretch to say yes many will be saved during this time but the Holy Spirit will not be present to dwell within them. Such a reversal of Pentecost is also accompanied by the presumption and altogether new take on salvation never seen before that one can be saved and inwardly regenrated without the Spirit within. As I said it seems a second class second tier type of salvation if Christ in you the Hope of Glory is not part of the hope of Tribulation believers.

Thanks I hope and blessings to God's Church.



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David Winter

 2013/7/18 6:50Profile









 Re:

Quote:
How is it possible then for those saved during the Tribulation to really and truly be saved if they are not going to have the Holy Spirit dwelling within them? Would you consider yourselves saved if the Holy Spirit was not within you? This seems to be putting a whole new spin on salvation that was not heard ir likely even thought of before the 1830s. And where was it ever determined before then that a pre-tribulation rapture of the Church would nullify and cancel Pentecost for those who were saved after it? Is it even possible to be inweardly regenerated and born again withouth the indwelling Spirit? Where have those who study and research soteriology (the results and effects of salvation) ever advocated that throughout Church history? If these things be true then Tribulation believers seems to be destined for a second class second tier type of salvation. Pentecost and the Holy Spirit coming to dwell with is also base on the fact that Christ is at the right hand of God. docs



I haven't lost sight of your earlier post docs and will answer the points raised as and when I am able to do so.

With regard to the above comments which you have made, some of which meaning is implicated throughout your comments, I would ask or else say the following:

First of all there is another OP which was had some time ago which deals with something of this same subject. Not the business specifically of what it means for men and women to be saved during the tribulation but rather the meaning of pentecost itself. The link is here.

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=47178&forum=36&start=160&169

It is a rather long OP but it does raise some clear thoughts by some members who believe that today as on the day of pentecost those who believe in Christ are born again simultaneously with the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Doctrinally this is called the "one baptism". Having thought about this claim a great deal over the last few months since this OP I have listed I have to say that in its strong expression their is a likelihood of error as to the meaning of being baptised in the Holy Spirit as opposed to one who believes into Christ as the Holy Spirit enables them to believe by a gift of faith. In short being born again cannot mean less than receiving newness of life and as it is the spirit that is born of the Spirit, this newness of life cannot mean anything less than knowing the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Albeit that this indwelling is not to a revealing of the Spirit Himself, but rather Christ and by Christ being revealed so is the Father revealed also.

This is just on thought process.

Another has to do with the Sheep and the Goats. Although this parable is often cited as an example of judging individual men and women, the parable itself does not claim this. It is a judging of the nations and it is whilst the nations are yet alive. That is to say it is a judging of men and women according to their individual nations according to the flesh and therefore these ones so judged cannot be born again, therefore cannot be raptured and cannot even know if they have served Christ at all. This is in fact what those of the sheep nations said "when did we do these things unto you". They were not even aware that they had served the Lord, even as Paul was not aware that he was persecuting Christ Himself when he was rounding up christians to cause them to suffer.

None of this has to do with Israel according to the flesh and so there is also those things which needs must be said of Israel as well.

On the face of it in generality I have come to believe and hold in a good conscience that those who are saved during the tribulation (at least the latter 42 months) have indeed missed any possibility of reigning with Christ in the Kingdom. Precisely how this is true I haven't really fully worked out in my thinking. Though it has to do with a missed opportunity, namely the rapture at the beginning of the 42 months which some call the mid tribulation rapture.

One thing is for sure any hard and fast presentation on this subject will bring in division and so it is all best held in balance with the more profitable business of reaching others and walking faithfully for Christ sake.

 2013/7/18 7:17
Christinyou
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Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3710
Ca.

 Re:

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Why is the Holy Spirit here now? To convict the world of sin and to indwell and reveal Jesus Christ in the believer.

If Christ is Here on His throne and we the Church are with Him, Where is the Holy Spirit? He is in the raptured Church, The Body of Christ, "He will be in you forever", not with you.

John 16:7-8 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

Just reverse this; If Christ is with those when He appears on this earth and is seen by all and He still has the power to raise the dead as He did before the Cross, I am sure He still can proclaim "come forth". "Death is swallowed up in victory". These are those that are clothed in white garments washed in the Blood of the Lamb.

There is no need for the Holy Spirit to indwell believers on earth, if Jesus Christ Himself is here physically, He will reprove the World, He is righteousness, and He most certainly is the Judge. His blood is still the most powerful to bring forth salvation for those that are on this earth in the tribulation and after. But birthing the incorruptible Seed of the Father in the believers that the Father has given to Christ and are offspring of God are already with Jesus Christ in His and our Father's House. 1 Thess 4, etc.

In Christ: Phillip








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Phillip

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 Re: For Christinyou

You wrote,

Why is the Holy Spirit here now? To convict the world of sin and to indwell and reveal Jesus Christ in the believer.

Me: That is true. So how are people to be saved during the Tribulation going to come under conviction of sin and repent of the Holy Spirit is gone? "For our gospel did not come to you in word only, but also in power and with full conviction; just as you know what kind of men we proved to be amiong you for your sake. (I Thess 1:5) How will this continue if the Holy Spirit is no longer present and activer in convicting sinners and wooing them to Christ?

If the Spirit indwells believers what of the believers after the supposed pre-trib rapture? If Christ wil not indwell then they are to experience a second class type of salvation that changes the very basic foundation of all we have come to know regarding salvation and its inward regenerating effects.

You wrote,

If Christ is Here on His throne and we the Church are with Him, Where is the Holy Spirit? He is in the raptured Church, The Body of Christ, "He will be in you forever", not with you.

Me: I understand "He will be in you forever" but if the Church leaves at a pre-trib rapture how is that supposed to cancel or nullify Pentecost for those who call on the Lord for salvation after that? Joel's famous prophecy of the outpouring of the Spirit and the celestial signs to occur before the second coming ends with, "And it will come about that whoever cals upon the name of the Lord shall be delivered." (Joel 2:32). Peter repeated the passage at Pentecost during his sermon and Peter ended with, "And it shall be, that every one who calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved" (Acts 2:21). Again, it leads to the question of what type of salvation are those who call upon the name of the Lord to experience if the Spirit will not indwell them? Is it possible to be saved and inwardly regenerated without the Spirit within?

You wrote,

John 16:7-8 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

Me: If the Spirit is to reprove the world of sin when it comes how will it reprove and convict sinners during the Tribulation if it has left the earth? Where did Christ say that It is expedient that He leave and send the Spirit (which came at Pentecost) but seven or three and a half years before the end of the age Pentecost will be cancelled and nullified even though many will believe in my name after it is cancelled?

You wrote,

Just reverse this; If Christ is with those when He appears on this earth and is seen by all and He still has the power to raise the dead as He did before the Cross, I am sure He still can proclaim "come forth". "Death is swallowed up in victory". These are those that are clothed in white garments washed in the Blood of the Lamb.

There is no need for the Holy Spirit to indwell believers on earth, if Jesus Christ Himself is here physically, He will reprove the World, He is righteousness, and He most certainly is the Judge. His blood is still the most powerful to bring forth salvation for those that are on this earth in the tribulation and after. But birthing the incorruptible Seed of the Father in the believers that the Father has given to Christ and are offspring of God are already with Jesus Christ in His and our Father's House. 1 Thess 4, etc.

Me: Ezekiel speaks of Israel after the seond coming,

27 - And I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statues, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances.

28 - And you will live in the land that I gave to your forefathers; so you will be My people, and I will be your God. (Ezekiel 36:27-28)

That's a picture of a redeemed Spirit indwelt Israel who has the Spirit within ("I will put My Spirit "within you")

And,

29 - "And I will not hide My face from them any longer, for I shall have poured out My Spirit on the house of Israel," declares the Lord God. (Ezekiel 39:29)

So even with Christ physically present after the second coming there seems to be a age portrayed where the Spirit still dwells within believers.

What Scriptures can pre-tribulation believers who believe in a cancellation of Pentecost point to to show a person can be inwardly born again and saved ('whoever calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved") without the indwelling Spirit? Where are the Scriptures that can verify this?




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David Winter

 2013/7/20 7:02Profile
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 Re:

Quote: """ How will this continue if the Holy Spirit is no longer present and active in convicting sinners and wooing them to Christ?"""

The same way Abraham was saved, by faith and believing in what God said. Abraham only had the Holy Spirit with him, of which I said will be the action required after and in the tribulation. "indwell the believer" is for when Christ is no longer manifest on this earth". After the Rapture The Spirit of God will be here and it will be up to God to put His Spirit in or be with those who will be saved in those times. How did God woo Abraham? Believe and you will be saved. Did Abraham believe God? Absolutely he did and it was counted to him for righteousness, not that he was righteous, for none is righteous, not one. With Jesus Christ sitting on His throne, salvation will be the same as in the old testament. Even then, will all believe?
But the Body of Christ His Church and His prize, His Bride will be together forever.
Ga 1:4 Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:
Eph 5:27 That he might present it to Himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
Revelation 19:9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

Revelation 19:11-14 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

We must make a choice of who the armies of heaven that followed Him on white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

The armies which were in heaven - Angels and saints and the Bride, over whom Jesus Christ is Captain and Husband,
Clothed in fine linen - All holy, pure, and righteous, Come to witness the triumph of Christ over evil.

Quote: """Is it possible to be saved and inwardly regenerated without the Spirit within?"""

All things are possible with God. I will leave that up to God. Abrahams righteousness counted to him because he believed God.

Quote: """ What Scriptures can pre-tribulation believers who believe in a cancellation of Pentecost point to to show a person can be inwardly born again and saved ('whoever calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved") without the indwelling Spirit? Where are the Scriptures that can verify this?"""

Genesis 15:6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.


Romans 4:16-18 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all, (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were. Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations; according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be.

This Abraham did not know, but the Bride of Christ has the witness in themselves, which Is Christ in you the Hope of Glory. Ephesians 5:27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
Are all the Bride?

Galatians 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. The Spirit of Christ born again in the believer.

With Christ Himself here, the Holy Spirit is only needed to be with you or what ever God chooses to us for His Glory.

John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

What is the opposite? John 16:15-16 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you. A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me, because I go to the Father.

John 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

As I said the Holy Spirit is not needed when the Son of God is present and manifest to the World. That does not mean He is gone. He still worketh as it pleases God who works all things for His Glory.

This is what I believe from the Word of God, I do not wish to force anything on anyone that they don't understand of, believe of, from where they are in Christ. I am sure if I am wrong, God will correct me and I will listen. This has already happened many times before, and I repent.

In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2013/7/21 1:25Profile
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 Re: For amrkelly

You wrote,

"I haven't lost sight of your earlier post docs and will answer the points raised as and when I am able to do so."

Me: I appreciate that and please don't knock yourself out doing it. Do so at your convenience and I realize I may have loaded to much into one post. But thanks, I am interested in your thoughts.

I have read parts of that other post about Pentecost and its meaning and will get back to it. I have also read some about midtribulationism in a book by John Walvoord titled, "The Rapture Question." He covers all aspects of the rapture issue and though I don't agree with the book he knows how to write clearly and concisely in presenting his view.

You wrote,

"On the face of it in generality I have come to believe and hold in a good conscience that those who are saved during the tribulation (at least the latter 42 months) have indeed missed any possibility of reigning with Christ in the Kingdom. Precisely how this is true I haven't really fully worked out in my thinking. Though it has to do with a missed opportunity, namely the rapture at the beginning of the 42 months which some call the mid tribulation rapture."

Me: I think I understand this view or point although you say you haven't worked it all out in your thinking. One point I don't understand about the pretribulation view is it is thought that to even be in the tribulation will be to experience the wrath of God and we aren't destined for wrath. Then why shouldn't those who will be saved during the tribulation be immediately taken out of the events since to even be in the tribulation is to experience wrath? If the blood of Christ saves them from wrath why should they have to stay in the cauldron of wrath when others didn't have to stay? But then all these other beliefs are thrown in such as those saved during the tribulation wil not have the Spirit indwell them. And that leads to many of the NT Scriptures regarding Christ within etc. as a result of salvation would be meaningless and non relevant for them. So they would not have the Spirit within and would not even be even be able to take advantage of the entire New Testament. This is not the picture of NT salvation as interpreted by the Church over the centuries. And poor Israel that will have to experience such a Spiritless largely scriptureless second class type of salvation while being destined to never reign with Christ. That is supposed to be Israel's Messianic hope!

Besides many of the beliefs accompanying the pre-trib view, I guess what dismays me most is that the pre-trib view robs the Church of its motivation and willingness to be a friend and help to Israel during the time of Jacob's trouble. I've been around Jewish people and in Jewish synagogues the past few years and I have Jewish friends. In some of the classes I have attended in the synagogue and in the way the Jewish people there spoke of it in open terms it became apparent to me that the Jewish psyche has not forgotten its treatment at the hands of the Church over the centuries. When I heard these things from their own mouths it caused such emotion and grief to tear through my chest that at times I didn't think I would be able to make the rest of the class. It's often been the Church that has stood on the necks of Jews stronger than anyone else. I'm not trying to provoke a reaction of excessive guilt but from a Jewish perspective it likely seems the height of Christian presumption to tell a Jew that during the upcoming time of Israel's worse time of trouble in its history that the Christian Church that often was at the forefront of persecuting Jews will be long gone to heaven and in the process getting married to the God of Israel. Add to that prideful attitudes from the Chruch such as, "You guys had your chance and should have taken it. "In the midst of a description of the career and activities of Antichrist Daniel wrote that, "the people who know their God will display strength and take action and those who have insight among the people will give understanding to the many." (Daniel 11:32-33). That's a prophecy of the Church in my opinion who has a calling to have the proper prophetic insight and understanding of what is occuring and why it is occuring and to point Israel and seeking Gentiles to Christ. Since the days of Christ the Church has always been present while the Lord simultaneously dealt with Israel and so it opens the possibility that the Church will be present during God's simultaneous final dealings with Israel. A prepared Church will be able to meet Israel in the wilderness and give understanding to them why they are in the wilderness. And point them to Christ. If the destinies of Israel and the Church have always been so intertwined then the possibility exists for their merging destinies to take place whole both are present at the end of the age. A prepared Church willing to answer this call will have dealt with and laid aside its own self interests and will not love its own life in my opinion. From my view that point seems one the pre-tribulation belief seems to want to avoid and thereby misses God's high calling for the Church at the end of the age.

Well, thanks again. I finally had some time to write a little this morning. Thanks for your input and thoughts.

Blessings.












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David Winter

 2013/7/21 10:38Profile
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 Re: For Christinyou

I'm sorry I haven't gotten back to you sooner but the way work is going for me I have somewhat limited time to do so.

I had asked,

"How will this continue if the Holy Spirit is no longer present and active in convicting sinners and wooing them to Christ?"

You replied,

The same way Abraham was saved, by faith and believing in what God said. Abraham only had the Holy Spirit with him, of which I said will be the action required after and in the tribulation. "indwell the believer" is for when Christ is no longer manifest on this earth". After the Rapture The Spirit of God will be here and it will be up to God to put His Spirit in or be with those who will be saved in those times. How did God woo Abraham? Believe and you will be saved. Did Abraham believe God? Absolutely he did and it was counted to him for righteousness, not that he was righteous, for none is righteous, not one. With Jesus Christ sitting on His throne, salvation will be the same as in the old testament. Even then, will all believe?

Me: Abraham had his righteousness because of his faith yet he still had to pass through he cross and the blood of Christ to be granted an eternal entrance into the kingdom. He was also the forefather of our faith and was used s a type and example of those who would believe in Christ later. And believing in Christ has always brought the Spirit's indwelling for any New Testament believer.

Not just to me, but to many, it seems a illogical exegetical stretch to advocate that after Christ has come and provided atonement and salvation that salvation will once again return to the way it was in the Old Testament. Since Christ has come there is really no reason at all to even to have to think on or consider this type of anti New Testament belief. Why would it even be a belief since it undoes much of the foundation regarding salvation established by God in Christ?

Regarding the Holy Spirit only being with tribulation believers instead of in them. If this is to be true then what of Peter's statement during his sermon at Pentecost,

37 - Now when they heard this, they were pierced to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Brethren, what shall we do?"

38 - And Peter said to them, "Repenet and leat each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

39 - "For the promise is for you and your children, and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God shall call to Himself. " (Acts 2:37-39)

Those in the tribulation will be far off from Pentecost and are certainly among those God will call to Himself and this basic and bare beginnings of the New Testament record regarding salvation and the indwelling of the Spirit is enough to put to rest any idea that the pre-trib rapture is supposed to reverse and nullify the indwelling of the Spirit for believers. Peter didn't offer a scintilla of a statement that this indwelling for believers would cease seven or three and a half years before the return of Christ. Neither did Christ mention any special period of seven or three and a half years before His second coming that He would no longer indwell believers by His Spirit.

You wrote,

But the Body of Christ His Church and His prize, His Bride will be together forever.
Ga 1:4 Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:
Eph 5:27 That he might present it to Himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
Revelation 19:9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

Revelation 19:11-14 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

We must make a choice of who the armies of heaven that followed Him on white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

The armies which were in heaven - Angels and saints and the Bride, over whom Jesus Christ is Captain and Husband,
Clothed in fine linen - All holy, pure, and righteous, Come to witness the triumph of Christ over evil.

Me: There are other plausible and credible explanations for Rev 19:11-14.

The Armies Which Are In Heaven

"The armies...in heaven" will follow Christ as He descends (Rev 19:14). Some have identified these armies with angelic hosts. However, the white linen worn by the armies has been ascribed to the saints a few verses earlier. It is more natural, then, to assume that the saints are in view here, too. Identifying the armies with the Church, we might reason that the rapture must already have taken place, since the armies are in heaven. But the weakness in such reasoning lies in the equation of the armies with the totality of the Church. Are we to think that the OT saints, not yet resurected, will be excluded from these armies? Where are most of the saints, where is most of the Church, now? In heaven. Either John does not distinguish living Christians because of the preponderating number of deceased saints, or he sees Jesus descending with the disembodied saints just before those on earth have been raptured. In the latter case he means the designation "in heaven" to distinguish the deceased in heaven from saints on earth who have not yet joined the heavenly train. (From "The Church And The Tribulation" - Robert Gundry - copyright 1972 - p 86)

If the marriage supper of the Lamb does not require a pre-tribulational resurrection and rapture of Israel's righteous neither does it require it of the Church. This is where you seemed to have missed my point regarding the timing of Isaiah 25:8 which is the resurrection of Israel's righteous and Paul links the translation of the Christian saints as occuring at the same time in I Cor 15:50-55. Isaiah 25:8 is not about events after the second coming but describe the resurrection of Israel's righteous at the end of the age. Paul shows in I Cor 15 it occurs at the same time as the resurrection and glorification of the living and dead Christian saints.

I asked,

Is it possible to be saved and inwardly regenerated without the Spirit within?"

You wrote,

All things are possible with God. I will leave that up to God. Abrahams righteousness counted to him because he believed God.

Me: As I said before, now that Christ has come and pours out His Spirit upon all and indwells all who believe in Him, why should there even be a question as to whether some type of anti New Testament salvation can occur. It has been left up to the Lord and He settled the matter once and for all.

You wrote,

As I said the Holy Spirit is not needed when the Son of God is present and manifest to the World. That does not mean He is gone. He still worketh as it pleases God who works all things for His Glory.

Me: Why then do Joel's prophecies regarding the outpouring of the Spirit upon all mankind have mainly to do with being fulfilled after the second coming when the remnant of Israel recognizes Christ for who He really is? If there is no need for the Spirit to be present when Christ is present in the world then why is it believed Joel's prophecies regarding the outpouring of the Spirt are to find their most compelte and exhaustive fulfillment after the second coming when Christ is present?

And we read of Israel after the tribulation and second coming,

27 - And I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statues, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances.

28 - "And you will live in the land that I gave to your forefathers; so you will be My people and I will be your God. (Ezekiel 36:27-28)

"I will put My Spirit WITHIN YOU" is what sticks out to me. It doesn't say I will put My Spirit WITH YOU. Those with the Spirit within are the Church and this shows the primacy of the Church in God's plan for the salvation of the world. They will have become part of the Church because they will have become true Israel with the Spirit within them.

You also wrote,

This is what I believe from the Word of God, I do not wish to force anything on anyone that they don't understand of, believe of, from where they are in Christ. I am sure if I am wrong, God will correct me and I will listen. This has already happened many times before, and I repent.

Me: I can appreciate that and I will be mindful of it. It's a good attitude and some of the were powerful in my opinion. It's obvious we have disagreements and I have likely said enought to you and will leave it here. Thank you for the time you took to write your comments to me.


_________________
David Winter

 2013/7/26 6:40Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3710
Ca.

 Re:

You wrote docs;

Quote: """Not just to me, but to many, it seems a illogical exegetical stretch to advocate that after Christ has come and provided atonement and salvation that salvation will once again return to the way it was in the Old Testament. Since Christ has come there is really no reason at all to even to have to think on or consider this type of anti New Testament belief. Why would it even be a belief since it undoes much of the foundation regarding salvation established by God in Christ?"""

"anti New Testament belief?" Is this not where God has left Israel?

Why the 144,000 to evangelize the world. With the presence of Jesus Christ in the New Jerusalem? How is Israel saved?
Was not Israel given the task of presenting God to the whole world and failed?

Why does Jesus rule with a Rod of Iron? Is this the beatitudes which made the Law even stronger in its application.

Psalms 2:9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.

Revelation 2:27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

Revelation 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

Revelation 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Does this sound like the wooing of the Holy Spirit?

Jesus Christ is still the Shepherd with the Scepter of Iron.

Revelation 19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

Psalms 2:12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.

In Christ: Phillip




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Phillip

 2013/7/26 22:31Profile
docs
Member



Joined: 2006/9/16
Posts: 2753


 Re: Reply for Christinyou

You wrote,

"anti New Testament belief?" Is this not where God has left Israel?

Me: I started to leave out the term "anti" because it sounded at least somewhat provocative. I may have even thought I changed it as I was last minute editing but obviously I didn't. I was just trying to get across the point of salvation in Christ withouth the indwelling Spirit doesn't have NT support regarding salvation in Christ.

Sure that is where God left Israel, not all of them, but how does that mean that those of Israel who call upon the name of the Lord to be saved during the Tribulation will not be privilege to the Spirit within because the pre-trib rapture will supposedly cancel and reverse Pentecost?

Paul began his sermon at Pentecost by addressing it to "Men of Judea, and all you who live in Jerusalem." (Acts 2:14).

He continued his address with "Men of Israel, listen to these words..." (Acts 2:22)

He ended his sermon with "Therefore, let all the house of Israel know for certain that God has made Him both Lord and Christ - this Jesus whom you crucified." (Acts 2:36)

The sermon was to those of Israel and the reaction he got was,

37 - Now when they heard this, they were pierced to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Brethren, what shall we do."

38 - "And Peter said to them, "Repent, and let each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."

39 - "For the promise is for you and your children, and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God shall call to Himself." (Acts 2:38-39)

It's hard to see therefore how someone of Israel who realizes during the Tribulation that God has for sure made Jesus both Lord and Christ and proved it by His resurrection from the dead and calls upon Him to be saved will have to do so without any anticipation of the gift of the Holy Spirit being given to him or her as it was to those of Israel at Pentecost. If that would be the case then Peter was not being truthful when he spoke what is recorded in verse 39 above. I know it is said by the pre-trib camp that the age of grace ends at the pre-trib rapture. I propose that Peter's words concerning the gift of the Holy Spirit and those it wil be available to show that it's not possible for the age of grace to end at a pre-trib rapture.

You wrote,

Why the 144,000 to evangelize the world. With the presence of Jesus Christ in the New Jerusalem? How is Israel saved?
Was not Israel given the task of presenting God to the whole world and failed?

Me: There is not a scripture anywhere that designates the 144,000 as evangelists so giving them that distinction can only be conjecture I would think. They may be, it's just that we can't know for sure at this point. But if they are to preach the gospel to Israel during the Tribulation as the teaching states, then how will they do it without the convictinting and drawing power of the Holy Spirit to assist them? Does anyone think these things through? And how can it not be contrary to New Testament teaching to say they will still be saved by faith in Christ and His atoning blood but their salvation will be Spiritless and will be the type of salvation such as occured in the Old Testament. It's perhaps one of the most regressive proposals that has ever come forth from the Chruch regarding those who believe. It stretches all exegetical bounds regarding New Testament soteriology and provides Tribulational Israel with a second class type of salvation which couldn't have and can not be God's desire for Israel.

How is Israel saved? At any time or location they will be saved by placing their faith in Christ and His atoning blood. I know that you know that but there won't be any other way if someone proposes it. There are scriptures that point to the possible reality that there will not be one person in Israel who does not believe (Jer 31:34) and Israel and its descendents will never backslide again (Isaiah 59:21). And when they believe, the Spirt will be within them (Ezekiel 36:27-28) in fulfillment of Jeremiah 31:33 when God's laws are placed within them and written on their heart by the Spirit within. But again, the subject is the Holy Spirit being withdrawn at the pre-trib rapture and those saved afterwards having to do without the gift of the Holy Spirit within them. To me, it's one of the unfortunate beliefs that has grown up with and around pre-tribulationism.

You wrote,

Was not Israel given the task of presenting God to the whole world and failed?

Me: Sure they failed but that doesn't mean there will be a seven or three and ahalf year period of time at the end of the age that if they do call upon Christ to be saved that they will have to so so without the Holy Spirit. Such conclusions are not in agreement with the foundational tenets of inward salvation begun by Christ and practiced by His Church throughout its history.

You wrote,

Why does Jesus rule with a Rod of Iron? Is this the beatitudes which made the Law even stronger in its application.

Psalms 2:9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.

Revelation 2:27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

Revelation 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

Revelation 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Does this sound like the wooing of the Holy Spirit?

Jesus Christ is still the Shepherd with the Scepter of Iron.

Revelation 19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

Psalms 2:12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.

Me: I don't have any problem with the Scriptures and the belief that Christ will rule with a rod of iron. I believe He will and we haven't seen anything yet as to how it will be as far as His ruling strongly. Christ's love for His Church and diligient care for them and for redeemed Israel will not clash with His ruling the nation with a rod of iron. Christ ruling in this way does not mean He willl rule without compassion for certainly He will rule in that manner also. The wooing of the Holy Spirit I referred to didn't have much to do with how things will be after Christ comes again. I was referring the Spirit's presence during the final days of the Tribulation and I questioned that if it was to be gone from the earth during this time then how can sinners be convicted and drawn to Christ? Or even inwardly born again (John 3:3)? This reversal of Pentecost that is supposed to occur at the pre-trib rapture is one of the beliefs that I believe needs to be looked at again.

29 - "And I will not hide My face from them any longer, for I shall have poured out My Spirit upon the hopuse of Israel" declares the Lord God. (Ezekiel 39:29)

I don't want to over exalt man, but perhoas during the Tribulation Israel will begin to see God's face and care for them in the face of a Church willing to be a friend and support for them during this time. Both will be in the wilderness and will have a understanding of each other as far as that goes. A meeting in the wilderness if you will but a prepared Church will have the proper prophetic insight as to what is happeneing and to share with Israel and Gentiles and point them to Christ. If Israel's rejection proved to be our reconcilation then might our reconcilitaiton also be a witness to Israel during this time that their reconciliation is still possible? The divine strategy and wisdom behind this meeting of Israel and a prepared Church in the wilderness is what the pre-trib view is missing. Might those of us who have been succored be a succorer of sorts to a wandering Israel? So what if both are in a final time of trouble? Not one of the rewards will be altered and will be great and not one promise of God will come up lacking.


_________________
David Winter

 2013/7/28 9:55Profile





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