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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Scripture Proof - 'Pretrib' Is Not The Truth

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proudpapa
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Joined: 2012/5/13
Posts: 2936


 Zac Poonen

"...I think about 90% of believers, born again believers, and perahps most of you,,, believe that Jesus Christ will come 7 years before,,,,,or as soon as the tribulation starts and secretly rapture the church.
I believed it too,,, as a young Christian,,. because I was taught that.
But as I studied the Scriptures carefully, honestly. I discovered it's not true.
I searched the Scriptures, the New Testament,, I could not find one verse. I studied it for 50 years,,, not one verse that taught that.
I discovered that it was a teaching of man,,that arose in England about 150 years ago,,.
No buddy believes it in the persecuted countries like China,,, or in the old communist countries,, nobody would believe it.
It arose in countries that never experienced persecution for centuries. And it is a very comfortable doctrine...." - Zac Poonen

 2013/7/7 0:33Profile
a-servant
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Joined: 2008/5/3
Posts: 435


 Re: Zac Poonen

There are clear indicative verses regarding the timing of the rapture, I would call them Key-verses in contrast to secondary verses that not directly mention either the rapture or the resurrection of the dead and thefore have less value than key-verses, and another one of these primary key verses is:

1 Corinthians 15:52  In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Let's check all trumpets in scripture and find the last trump:

Revelation 8:13  And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!

At this stage 3 more angels are going to sound a trumpet. Let's see what happens along the way:

Revelation 9:1  And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit. And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.

remember the darkened sun and star falling from the sky in another reference? Also mentioned in Matthew 24:29

Revelation 9:13  And the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God, Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates. And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.

the third part of men is more than 2000 million people currently, so a lot of people will "disappear" at that point in time, however not in the sense the majority of expectant pretribers would like to see it.

The angel that follows the sixth angel is in: Revelation 11:1  And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein. But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

In Rev 8:13 we learn that 3 more angels are yet to sound, 2 angels then follow with direct reference to sounding a trumpet, yet the last ever mentioned trumpet is in Rev 9.13 already. So I leave it up to you when you want to put the "Last Trump" referred to in 1 Corinthians 15:52

It is either the trump of Revelation 9:13, because it's the last one mentioned in all of the Bible. Or it is the one of the 7th angel that isnt explicitly mentioned to sound, yet we know it's got to be there because of the reference in Revelation 8:13 of "3 more are to sound" where the third of that would belong to the 7th angel. Either way the "slaying of the third part of men" happens and in case this would include a vaporisation inside mushroom clouds it would put yet another angle on that teaching of the disappearance of people before the return of Jesus.

 2013/7/7 0:40Profile
psalm1
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Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 1230


 Re: Zac Poonen

"But as I studied the Scriptures carefully, honestly. I discovered it's not true.
I searched the Scriptures, the New Testament,, I could not find one verse. I studied it for 50 years,,, not one verse that taught that. "

Totally false.
What a reckless statement.

Note;no scripture reference
Note;he bases his belief on some Christians in china.Not the bible
Note;Watch his videos on the subject.He edits out any scriptures referencing pretrib.

 2013/7/7 12:38Profile
psalm1
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Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 1230


 Re:

RE; "He specifically told the 12 : "In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also."

So when was the separate rapture of only the 12?
When did he come back to get them?

He ,Jesus,only has 12 mansions?


Do not be deceived by those teaching a doctrine that requires you to look through unscriptural bizarre prisms!



Quote;"But if I am right, than we have an unprepared church for what is fixing to take place. "

So you are justifying ignoring the "escape" scriptures,and the clear picture of the promise of the church doing business in heaven,and the fact that the marriage supper and the bride are already in heaven during the tribulation period?

Not to mention the white horses,and the crystal clear beautiful picture of the 10 virgins in Mat 25?
There are so many places where "escape" is the warning and the subject matter.I am at liberty to examine these scriptures,enjoy them and appreciate the Lord's desire to tell me to be ready,not for the devil man and his appearing,but the groom and his taking away his bride.

Post trib has recently gotten so bizarre in their "Anti rapture" rhetoric,it is as if you are forbidden to even glance at the WEIGHT of scripture I embrace and enjoy from the king,my bridegroom,Jesus.

It is not the job of the church to observe some martyr or christian in jail and then modify the scriptures to apologize for those verses that seem to add(if viewed from logic) to their suffering.

Jesus called Peter satan
The woman at the well a Dog
Under the logic method of mans values I would have to say any teaching from Jesus on love would be hypocritical.
See where the logic method leads?

I am sure you have allowed the bulk of scripture to override this erroneous "Jesus can't be loving" notion.

It is the same with the persecuted church.Logic is the low road method for getting the scriptures to reconcile seeming contradictions.

 2013/7/7 13:11Profile
psalm1
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Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 1230


 Re:

With the post trib obsession with persecuted saints forming one's biblical views,why would they think they have any firewall against deception?

The weight of scripture verses only 3 scriptures?
Seriously?

Well when we bring in the persecuted saints!......Seriously?

Last trump? Seriously?Have you looked at the last trump objectively?Think about it.You are desperate for some scriptures,not to form a post trib doctrine,but to muddy up the weight of scripture on the return of Jesus for his bride.

What in the world is going on here?????

 2013/7/7 13:24Profile
psalm1
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Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 1230


 Re:

Quote "Agreed, Thank you

Question; would you consider those clothed in white robes as another of the raptures? Revelation 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.


In Christ: Phillip"

Note;They had to wash their robes.Something was not right with them,but has been corrected.

They are obviously martyers. The martyred number has now been fulfilled.(Remember,they were not allowed out from under the altar before their number was fulfilled)

This is the fate of those left behind after the pretrib rapture.
Remember,antichrist is empowed to kill the saints.

He is deadly gifted to do just that.The word says that every single man woman and child receives the mark,and those without it are dead.

Without a doubt,a post trib rapture is not just unlikely,but completely impossible.

 2013/7/7 13:36Profile
psalm1
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Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 1230


 Re:

Quote by murrcoir "It shows some will be murdered"

Read it again...... (ALL are murdered)"7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."

Do you see that you are implying some saints take the mark and are still go to go for the rapture?

 2013/7/7 13:45Profile
psalm1
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Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 1230


 Re:

Question for post trib.

Who is represented by the 5 foolish virgins?

Please keep it within the scriptures frame work.

They were left behind and were not allowed in the chamber of the groom.They were in a separate location.

They were saved

They did not keep their relationship "hot" with Jesus.

They did not think he was not coming.

Who are they?

 2013/7/7 13:52Profile
proudpapa
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Joined: 2012/5/13
Posts: 2936


 Re:

Hi, psalm1

Zac Poonen said : "But as I studied the Scriptures carefully, honestly. I discovered it's not true.
I searched the Scriptures, the New Testament,, I could not find one verse. I studied it for 50 years,,, not one verse that taught that. "

psalm1 responded :////Totally false.
What a reckless statement.
Note;no scripture reference
Note;he bases his belief on some Christians in china.Not the bible
Note;Watch his videos on the subject.He edits out any scriptures referencing pretrib.////

Zac did not recklessly make the statement, but instead he sincerely came to that conclusion from 50 years of studying the Scriptures.

The quote is from "Some Things I Have Learnt In 50 Years" Part 4 by Zac Poonen:
https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/myvideo/photo.php?lid=2034

 2013/7/7 15:11Profile
proudpapa
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Joined: 2012/5/13
Posts: 2936


 Re:

psalm1 wrote: /////Question for post trib.
Who is represented by the 5 foolish virgins?
Please keep it within the scriptures frame work.
They were left behind and were not allowed in the chamber of the groom.They were in a separate location.
They were saved
They did not keep their relationship "hot" with Jesus.
They did not think he was not coming.
Who are they?/////

The Scripture says of the 5 foolish virgins ch 25 v 12

"But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not."

The statement:, "I know you not" would appear to me, that they where not saved.

Edit add, Who do you believe the 5 foolish virgins are ?



 2013/7/7 15:18Profile





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