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 Re: John Piper

I write this with no rancor, but the world is on fire right now, and I get this thread with such deep bon mots from John Piper as:

"I could give a whole theology of spanking here, but maybe I'll just boil it down......Children have little fat bottoms so that they can be whopped."

oh that's a mighty revelation from John Piper. My precious Boomey, who is now 17, and in college AND working a full time jog being mentored by a powerful family friend in property management, AT MOST, received 5 "pop's" on his rear end, when he was a wee lad.

Why is it, that we never talk about what I viewed as CENTRAL to MY philosophy on child rearing, two you can NEVER kiss a childs cheek and head TOO MANY times....between his dear mother and I, that boy was held and kissed and loved and valued beyond reckoning, to such a degree, that at 17 years of age, when so many children are in either active rebellion,or just outright disdain their parents.....last night at one in the morning, my son and I spent 2 hours on the phone, watching a HUGE thunder cell on the radar move over our ranch, laughing, whilst we chatted about a dozen other topics, ranging from Christ IN you, to what a bad path this nation is headed, with its lies and the populaces ignorance, etc

which leads to my second raising a child point, which is, from the SECOND the lad was born, I spoke to him with adult level vocabulary, which is why I have 17 year old in COLLEGE, and servicing realty accounts.

Parenting is all about showing, not telling, and I have been feasting for months now on what I will share with you all...six months ago, maybe more, his mother told me on the QT, that out of nowhere, our son asked her, "Do you know who I think is the most moral, upright and noble man I ever met?"

she asked "who?"

"Daddy" was his reply, I started crying joy, and two days later, I told him, I heard of this parise from him, how it blessed me, and told him this, "That what he witnesses is the Divine Reality of Jesus living IN me, and thru me" which he heartedly agreed, as he is a God fearing and well saved young man.

am I the "perfect father"? Heavens no! but I do kiss and hug him every chance I get.

hence the more profitable discussion is about those invaluable kisses freely given, than the five "pops" I had to give...or whether or not Jesus would have "spanked" his children, just foolish I say that in respect PP, as it was Piper, who spoke as such.

with the ways things are going in Syria, and our foolish empire meddling and scheming there, we're two steps away from a direct face off with the Russians....which means the last thing you might see is the white hot chalky blinding light of a nuclear detonation. so hug those children while you still can.

 2013/6/15 11:52

Joined: 2012/5/13
Posts: 2936

 Ray Comfort

Ray Comfort:
" I read recently where mother from Texas was sentenced to probation, and lost custody of her children--for spanking her daughter! "Rosalina Gonzales of Corpus Christi pleaded guilty on Wednesday to injury to a child for swatting the two-year-old on her buttocks." More than 53 million babies have been murdered in America through abortion, and the law says that's okay. No crime has been committed. But a judge makes a criminal out of a mother who disciples her child, and then he takes her children from her, leaving them without a mother. Judge Jose Longoria said, "In the old days, maybe we got spanked, but there was a different quarrel. You don't spank children." What planet does this judge live on? In days of old we didn't have kids who murdered their parents, shot their schoolmates, lied daily, stole whatever they wanted, blasphemed as a normal part of conversation, or killed themselves with drugs and alcohol.How is a parent supposed to discipline a child? Andy Griffith used the woodshed. But that was in the days of old, when Americans didn't even need to lock their doors. Nowadays we do. Today our prisons are full of people who weren't given proper boundaries at home, and now they have immovable boundaries given to them by the government. In Psalm 1, Scripture gives us a clear picture of what a godly person should be, as well as the reward of this godliness."Blessed is the man who walks not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor stands in the path of sinners, nor sits in the seat of the scornful; but his delight is in the law of the Lord, and in His law he meditates day and night. He shall be like a tree planted by the rivers of water, that brings forth its fruit in its season, whose leaf also shall not wither; and whatever he does shall prosper" (vv. 1–3).Let's meditate on these verses to truly understand their meaning and consider how they apply to parenting.God says that you are blessed (highly favored) if you don't listen to the world's advice. If you are tempted to heed the "counsel of the ungodly," consider that the world's "experts" believe mankind evolved from monkeys. A little thought on our part should help us see why it's wise not to listen to their ramblings, but rather listen to what the Creator has to say.The fruit of the world's godless advice is seen in the headlines of the daily news. Their counsel may sound right, but so often it proves to be wrong. For example, the world says that if you love your children, you will never physically discipline them. It says to seek alternatives rather than inflicting physical pain.In the Book of Proverbs, written by the wisest man who ever lived, God's Word gives the following counsel:"Foolishness is bound up in the heart of a child, but the rod of correction will drive it far from him." (Proverbs 22:15)"The rod and reproof give wisdom, but a child left to himself brings shame to his mother." (Proverbs 29:15)It's commonly said that he who spares the rod spoils the child, but God's Word actually puts it more strongly:"He who spares his rod hates his son, but he who loves him disciplines him promptly." (Proverbs 13:24, emphasis added)So there's your choice: listen to what seems right, or do what God says is right.As parents, we should always do what the Word of God says to do, and often that's not easy. Applying the rod of correction (often called "the board of education") to "the seat of learning" takes resolution, as well as courage. But love will do it. The Bible says that in doing so you will save your children from hell (see Proverbs 23:13,14), and what parents want their children to go to end up in hell? We should value the eternal welfare of our children, rather than our own temporal anxiety when it comes to applying discipline. The contrast between God's ways and the world's ways were clearly demonstrated in an incident that occurred when our eldest son, Jacob, was six years old. We had a neighbor who would never even think of physically disciplining her six-year-old. When he refused to go to school, she would simply bribe him with candy.One day Jacob said a word to his mother that he wasn't supposed to say. I sent him to his room, and then followed him a moment later. I asked him if he knew that what he said was wrong. He admitted that he did. I then told him to bend over his bed, and resolutely gave him a swift swat across his rear with a small stick. He burst into tears. I went to get him a tissue, then left him for ten minutes. When I returned, I knelt down in front of him and we hugged. I then looked him in the eyes and said, "I want you to pray and ask God to forgive you, then go out to your mother and tell her that you are sorry." He did just that.A few minutes later I was helping Sue dry the dishes while Jacob sat at the table, thoughtfully holding a pencil and paper. Suddenly I felt a tug on my shirt. It was Jacob. He reached up and handed me a note. It read: "I love my dad."This made no sense to me. I had just caused him physical pain, yet even as a six-year-old he could discern that my motive was love. In contrast, the neighbor's six-year-old would point a toy gun at his mother and say, "I hate you, I hate you. I'm going to kill you!" Of course, he wasn't disciplined for that either.Tragically, the world refuses to use the rod of correction to drive "foolishness" from the hearts of their children. The foolishness therefore remains in their hearts as they grow (atheism is a case in point), and many children bring their parents nothing but grief by ending up pregnant, in prison, with drug or alcohol problems, or with broken marriages.
Adapted from How to Bring Your Children to Christ, and Keep Them There."

 2013/6/15 11:07Profile

Joined: 2012/5/13
Posts: 2936

 John Piper

John Piper:

"Would Jesus spank a child? If so, where would you point someone biblically who can't imagine him doing this?

If Jesus were married and had children, I think he would have spanked the children.

The place that I would go to help a person see that he would, when they can't imagine that he would, is Matthew 5 where he said, "Not a jot nor a tittle will pass away from the Law until all is accomplished." In other words, all the Law and the Prophets stand until they're done. And the Law says, "Spare the rod, spoil the child." That's a paraphrase. The book of Proverbs says, "If you withhold the rod, you hate your son." Jesus believed the Bible, and he would have done it.

Now, that does not address the heart of the issue. The heart of the issue is: Why does this person feel this way? What worldview inclines a person to think that you shouldn't spank a child? Where does that come from?

Well it comes straight out of this culture, I think. There's a sign that used to be on the side of the 35W bridge, on the right as you go north. And the sign simply said this: "Never, never, never, never, never hurt a child." That's all it said! And spanking is equated with hurting children. It's against the law in Sweden to spank a child. And it's against the law, I think, in some states in America. I'm not sure.

Well, I will go to jail over that issue! Talitha is to the point where I don't think in terms of spanking my 13-year-old daughter anymore. But I did when she was little.

I could give a whole theology of spanking here, but maybe I'll just boil it down. Why does this person feel squeamish about spanking? My guess is that it is a wrong view of God.

Deep down, does this person believe that God brings pain into our lives? Because Hebrews 12:6 makes the direct connection: God disciplines every son whom he loves, and spanks everyone that he delights in (my paraphrase). And the point there is suffering. God brings sufferings into our lives, and the writer of the Hebrews connects it to the parenting of God of his children.

This is a wrong view of God! God uses suffering to discipline his children. So do we.

Now, you don't damage a child. You don't give him a black eye or break his arm. Children have little fat bottoms so that they can be whopped.

When my sons were three and four years old, at their worst stages, drawing with orange crayons on the wall, they knew what was going to happen. So one day, just to give you an illustration of how this works emotionally, I found an orange mark on the wall in the hall upstairs from a crayon. Just about Barnabas' height. And he's three or four.

So I get Barnabas. I say, "Come here Barnabas. Did you make that mark on the wall."

"Yes." At least he's honest.

I said, "We have a rule against that. You know you cannot draw on the wall with your crayons. You're old enough to know that."


"So what should happen?"

"A spanking."

I said, "That's right." So I take him in the room, and whop! And he cries easy, so he cries. And when he's done crying, there's a big hug. And I say, "Don't do that again, OK? Daddy loves you and we don't mark on the wall, OK?"

Three minutes later he is bouncing off the walls, happy happy happy.

Now if I had said to him, "You go into your room and you sit there and you stay there until you feel appropriately guilty, and then we'll see if you come out and do the right thing," what a wicked way to punish a child!

Spanking is so clean! It's so quick! It's so relieving! A kid feels like he has done atonement and he is out of there and happy.

To these modern ideas of timeout, or sitting in the corner, I say, "Bologna! Give me a spanking! I want to go play!"

I just think spanking is really healthy for children. It is a measured deliverance of a non-damaging act of mild pain that makes the child feel the seriousness of what he's done. It is not beating. It is not abuse. There is a clear difference. The very word "spank" exists because there is such a thing as a loving way to whop a child on his behind or his chunky thigh."

 2013/6/15 10:01Profile

Joined: 2012/5/13
Posts: 2936

 David Servant

David Servant:

"Child Discipline

The child who is never disciplined will grow up to be selfish and rebellious toward authority. Children should be disciplined any time they defiantly disobey reasonable rules that have been established beforehand by their parents. Children should not be punished for mistakes or childish irresponsibility. They should, however, usually be required to face the consequences of their mistakes and irresponsibilities, thus helping to prepare them for the realities of adult life.

Young children should be disciplined by means of spanking, as God's Word instructs. New babies, of course, should not be spanked. This does not mean that babies should always be given their own way. In fact, from the day of birth it should be clear to them that mother and father are in charge. They can be taught at a very young age what the word "no" means by simply restraining them from doing what they are doing or about to do. Once they begin to understand what "no " means, a small slap on their buttocks will help them understand even better when they don't stop those actions that the parent desires them to stop. If this is done consistently, children will learn to be obedient at a very young age.

Parents can also establish their authority by not reinforcing undesirable behavior in their children, such as immediately giving them what they want every time they cry. To do so is to teach children to cry in order to gain their desires. Or, if parents yield to the demands of their children every time they throw a temper tantrum or whine, such parents are actually encouraging such undesirable behavior. Wise parents only reward behavior that is desirable in their children.

Spankings should not be physically harmful but should certainly generate enough pain to cause the disobedient child to cry for a short time. In this way, the child will learn to associate disobedience with pain. This the Bible affirms:

He who spares his rod hates his son, but he who loves him disciplines him diligently....Foolishness is bound up in the heart of a child; the rod of discipline will remove it far from him....Do not hold back discipline from the child, although you beat him with the rod, he will not die. You shall beat him with the rod, and deliver his soul from Sheol....The rod and reproof give wisdom, but a child who gets his own way brings shame to his mother (Prov. 13:24; 22:15; 23:13-14; 29:15).

When parents simply enforce their rules, they do not need to threaten children to make them obedient. If a child defiantly disobeys, he should be spanked. If a parent only threatens to spank his disobedient child, he is only reinforcing his child's continued disobedience. As a result, the child learns not to be concerned about being obedient until his parents' verbal threats reach a certain volume.

After the spanking has been administered, the child should be hugged and reassured of his parent's love."

 2013/6/15 2:02Profile

Joined: 2012/5/13
Posts: 2936

 Zac poonon

Zac poonon :... and further in verse 15, and foolishness is bound up in the heart of a child but the rod of discipline will remove it far from him , isn't that interesting, their is foolishness in the heart of every child, but take a rod and hit him on the bottom and discipline him, their is a connection between that bottom and his heart, foolishness is driven out of the heart..,

 2013/6/15 1:44Profile

Joined: 2012/5/13
Posts: 2936

 Tim Conway

Tim Conway : If you discipline your child right, guess what by the end they are hugging you. Oh the world does not believe such things, they think spanking is cruel but I tell you if you do it right and you do it in love, your child will qling tightly to you by the end, if you do it wrong they will go out resenting you......

 2013/6/15 1:42Profile

Joined: 2012/5/13
Posts: 2936

 David Legge

David Legge:

... "Thirdly, we are to discipline them. The word 'nurture' that you have is quite a weak translation, if I can say that, for a stronger translation is 'chasten'. It means instruction, and indeed in Hebrews 12 - you know the passage about disciples, the Lord's children, being chastened - it's exactly the same word. It's the idea of learning through discipline, and it's talking about correction that may be verbal, or indeed corporal. Now, we're getting onto a thorny issue here - for today some psychologists and educators, and children's workers and social workers oppose any corporal punishment at all. They see it as an archaic philosophy of punishment that's outdated, we have evolved beyond that in our mental state and physically speaking. The cry is: 'Let them express themselves! Let them do as they wish! If you discipline them, if you punish them, it will suppress their personalities and perhaps warp their characters' - and sadly even some Christians today now have swallowed this belief that their children will grow up scarred if they are punished.

Well, children are expressing themselves alright. I'm well aware of the backdrop of child abuse in this evil world, and indeed of parents who have taken this principle to Satanic extremes of abuse - but again, let us say this: beware that we do not opt for a knee-jerk reaction! We must beware that we don't throw the baby of biblical corporal punishment out with the bath water of brutality! You see, this is what the church does at times - because the world, or some evil people in the world, go in a certain direction we forget about the whole thing entirely! Now, let me say this, and let me be clear: that a heavy-handed approach to child discipline is forbidden by the word of God. 'Provoke not thy children to wrath' covers it; 'Love them not in anger', lest you injure the body or lest you injure the spirit and they turn away from you or turn away from God.

We're not talking about flying off the handle - and I support any efforts to eradicate such sinful behaviour - but to ban smacking is unbiblical, it is a denial of the word of God and those who ban it will reap what they sow in rebellious children. That's what you find within the word of God, and let me say this: you hear some comparisons of what smacking is like, and I want to say that it's like comparing extracting a rotten tooth with grievous bodily harm! Isn't it? To say that this is physical abuse? And let me go a further step: to say that this is wrong is to accuse God of sin! Now beware, for in Hebrews 12 verse 6 it says this: 'For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth'. Proverbs 13:24: 'He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes'. Is God wrong? Let's discuss this a minute (only I'm going to be the only one speaking, that's the only thing!). Let's think about it: is God wrong, is He? Why do we have to upstage God? Why do we always have to make a better idea? Now I'm not talking about using a cannon to squash a flea or anything like that - Evangelist Brady Wilson said of his mother that she had an old razor strap which hung on a nail in the kitchen and under it was the sign: 'I Need Thee Every Hour' - that's not what I'm talking about. In fact an over use of discipline will be useless at all, won't it? It'll lose the whole impact of the thing! And I'm not saying that if you discipline your child you'll have a model Christian or a model citizen on the earth, I'm not saying if your child has failed that you didn't do anything right - but what I'm saying here is: in the word of God there's a principle and it means this: if you want to give your child the greatest opportunity of development in every area of life, like the Lord Jesus Christ Himself, you'll discipline!

Speaking of disciplining your children, Susannah Wesley - the mother of 17 children, including John and Charles - said this: 'The parent who studies to subdue self-will', studying to subdue self-will, 'in his child works together with God in renewing and the saving of his soul. The parents who indulges it does the Devil's work, makes religion impractical, salvation unattainable, and does all that in him lies to damn his child, soul and body, forever'."

 2013/6/15 1:39Profile

Joined: 2012/5/13
Posts: 2936

 consensus of SI preachers, when it comes to including spanking in child training (for or against)

I am opening this thread, to get a consensus of what The Preachers presented on SI, teach or believe, when it comes to the inclusion of spanking, in child training.

Quotes or statements with the inclusion of the source from which they where derived is Preferred

this is not intended as a debate thread, but rather as a research thread.

(for or against) Statements or quotes are both welcome.

Every Christian Preacher presented on SI is obviously oppossed to abuse! so statements in opposition to abuse do not classify as statements opposed to Biblical discipline.

But statements or quotes from preachers presented on SI whom may directly oppose the traditional understanding of the rod of correction or oppose the traditional use of spanking in child training are welcome.

Again this is not a debate thread, If an issue comes up that one feels needs much disscussion please start a new thread.

 2013/6/15 1:35Profile

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