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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Is there a sin nature?

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Koheleth
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Joined: 2005/11/10
Posts: 530
NC

 Re:

Quote:
I have not formed an opinion on this subject, but there is this scripture in Ephesians 2:3: "among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others" (NKJV)

By saying that we are by nature children of wrath, does that mean we have a sin nature?



Taken by itself, the phrase "by nature children of wrath" could mean that. But it could mean other things. How can we understand it? First, by asking what range of meanings the verse itself can have, and second, by asking which of those meanings best corresponds to the rest of the Scriptures.

So, to be fair, I can see where a person could read this verse and conclude that this "nature" is a congenital sinful nature. But are there other reasonable interpretations? I would reference 2 Peter 2:12-16, and say that through sin, the nature of ourselves and our situation with God has become one of judgment. We are condemned and judged because of our sin, our wrongdoing, our transgression of God's law, and not because of something we are born with when we had no sin or wrongdoing. Someone may point out that the first verse uses "born", but please note that is referencing the animals (creatures) and not the people. Peter explains in the following verses that the people are condemned because of their sins.

What do the rest of the Scriptures teach? Obviously there are differing perspectives on this, but I personally do not find any Scriptures that show we inherited sin from Adam.

If the view that we inherited sin from Adam means we cannot come to God unless he brings us to himself apart from our own will or understanding, then that opens up deeper issues of our understanding of God, as have been visited before on this website. I am not at all trying to raise those issues, but am just saying that this belief about the sinful nature may end up taking you there, so it leads to a whole system of doctrine.

Without recommending any particular view, we should all agree with Paul that we must "examine all things carefully". May we all do that before the Lord: our heart, our doctrine, our attitude, our works, and most of all our love.

 2013/4/28 5:00Profile
murrcolr
Member



Joined: 2007/4/25
Posts: 1839
Scotland, UK

 Re:

Quote: Man is not guilty for being man, he is guilty because he holds the truth.

We know that the wages of sin is death Rom 6:23

Before you’re born in your mother’s womb we knew one thing about you that one day you’re going to die.

Man is guilty that is why he is born dead spiritually and condemned to death naturally.


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Colin Murray

 2013/4/28 5:04Profile
Heydave
Member



Joined: 2008/4/12
Posts: 1306
Hampshire, UK

 Re:

The bible teaches us that ALL have sinned and there in NONE righteous. If it is true that there is no inherited Adamic sin nature then that begs the question...why is there no one who has not sinned? Or..if people are born without sin then it is theoretically possible for someone to be sinless. However we know there is only one man (The Lord Jesus Christ) who is without sin. He was not of Adam's seed, born or a virgin and of the seed of God.

Take a close look at ROMANS 5:12-21.Note the phrases 'one man' (Adam) and 'all men'.
V12 - through ONE MAN (Adam) sin entered the world and death spread to ALL men.
V.14 - Death reigned from Adam to Moses, even to those who did not sin like Adam.
V.15 - by one man's offense many died.
V.18 - by one man's offense judgement came to ALL men.
V.19 - For by one man's disobedience were many made sinners.

Seems pretty conclusive to me. Don't you think Paul was trying to get a point across here?!

What is the point and need of us dying with Christ and being born again, if we can just decide not to sin? It sounds like a moral clean up rather than what salvation really is, a putting to death the old and receiving a new life in Christ.


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Dave

 2013/4/28 8:39Profile
proudpapa
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Joined: 2012/5/13
Posts: 2936


 Re: murrcolr

Hi murrcolr

murrcolr wrote /////Before you’re born in your mother’s womb we knew one thing about you that one day you’re going to die.
Man is guilty that is why he is born dead spiritually and condemned to death naturally./////


Paul says it this way in Romans 5: 13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law)

Where their is no law, sin is not imputed, Romans clearly teaches that over and over again

14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

Yes, all of Adams offspring are born seperated from the tree of life and will naturally die.

Children are born innocent not guilty! Jesus says it this way "for of such is the kingdom of God".

If children are born guilty because of what Adam did, than we must conclude, as what you have agreed with in past threads : that in conception we are by nature the children of wrath and deserving of Hell for no other reason than simply being created, and that all infants that die are in Hell.

I do not find that to be scripture but rather I find that to be Augustinian Catholicism,(tradition)

Such views are why Augustine taught infant baptism to save the infant from his original sin.

A good study is how thru out history those whom taught infant baptism have treated those whom taught believers baptism (it is a bloody history!)

 2013/4/28 9:08Profile
proudpapa
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Joined: 2012/5/13
Posts: 2936


 Re:

Hi Heydave

you left out v 13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but (((sin is not imputed when there is no law.)))
as what murrcolr pasted Isaiah 6:5 with a period after man, unstead of finishing the rest of the verse.

If Men are born sinners as you claim, than you will have to conclude as murrcolr has conceded in the past that the infant that dies is in Hell.

Yet Jesus says it this way "Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven"

"Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: (((for of such is the kingdom of God.)))"

(Innocent!)

 2013/4/28 9:26Profile
Heydave
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Joined: 2008/4/12
Posts: 1306
Hampshire, UK

 Re:

proudpapa,

I think there is a misunderstanding of what 'imputed' means.

Having sin imputed means that it is reckoned against you. It does NOT mean you don't have sin, as v.18 clearly states.
You keep quoting this part " sin is not imputed" to try and establish people do not have sin. However you ignore all the other parts of Romans 5 that tell us sin came to ALL MEN through Adam.

"Through ONE MAN'S disobedience many were made sinners" v.19

Every one who has had children knows they are not innocent. Even before they can talk or walk they show signs of disobedience. They don't learn this, it comes naturally!
However it is not imputed to them (reckoned to their account) before they are of an age of understanding, so will not go to hell.

Do you really think that children are without sin (even if they do not have a sin nature)? Up to what age can they remain sinless? According to your logic only those children who are sinless will go to heaven.

Quote: "Yet Jesus says it this way "Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven"

This is talking about having the humility of a child to receive salvation, NOT saying we need to become sinless like children.

Sorry we seem to be at odds once again brother!


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Dave

 2013/4/28 9:55Profile
proudpapa
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Joined: 2012/5/13
Posts: 2936


 Re:

Hi Heydave,

Heydave wrote //// think there is a misunderstanding of what 'imputed' means.
Having sin imputed means that it is reckoned against you. It does NOT mean you don't have sin, as v.18 clearly states.
You keep quoting this part " sin is not imputed" to try and establish people do not have sin. However you ignore all the other parts of Romans 5 that tell us sin came to ALL MEN through Adam.
"Through ONE MAN'S disobedience many were made sinners" v.19////

here again your conclusion is inconsistent with the context, because if verse 18 and 19 as you have quoted is imputed at birth. Than we must logicaly agree "even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon All MEN unto justification of life." happens at birth and that "so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous." at birth. this would be universalism and obviously not scriptural

Heydave wrote ////Do you really think that children are without sin////

infants absoulutly!
where their is no law, their is no sin, they do not have guilt in their soul because they have not yet disobeyed their conscience (law with in)






 2013/4/28 10:16Profile
Heydave
Member



Joined: 2008/4/12
Posts: 1306
Hampshire, UK

 Re:

proudpapa,

Quote: "here again your conclusion is inconsistent with the context, because if verse 18 and 19 as you have quoted is imputed at birth. Than we must logicaly agree "even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon All MEN unto justification of life." happens at birth and that "so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous." at birth. this would be universalism and obviously not scriptural"

ALL humans are born of Adam, therefore all inherit sin and death from him. Not all humans are born of Christ, ONLY those who are born again through faith. Therefore all those who are 'in Christ' are made righteous. That is quite straight forward, is it not?


Quote: "where their is no law, their is no sin, they do not have guilt in their soul because they have not yet disobeyed their conscience (law with in)"

I agree, but just because there is no guilt does not mean there is no sin. It is just not imputed.

When we talk about the whole human race being 'in Sin' we have to understand this in a much broader sense than any particular sins. Sin is the condition of being separated from the life of God and living independently of God. This was The Sin of Adam and Eve - rebellion to act independently of God. This results in the fruit of sins, but Sin at it's root is being our own god. This is the condition of all men until they get reconciled to God through Jesus Christ.

You say infants are innocent and without sin, but at what age do you consider they don't violate their conscience? I would suggest it is very young. As soon as they understand 'no' and disobey they show they have a rebellious nature.


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Dave

 2013/4/28 13:18Profile
murrcolr
Member



Joined: 2007/4/25
Posts: 1839
Scotland, UK

 Re:

Quote: Children are born innocent not guilty!

The Psalmist says Ps.58:3 “the wicked go astray from the womb, they err from their birth speaking lies.

Job 15:14 What is man, that he could be pure? And he who is born of a woman, that he could be righteous?

Job 25:4 How then can man be righteous before God? Or how can he be pure who is born of a woman?

David explained that his conception had sin involved. Ps 51:5: “Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin my mother conceived me.” We as David have a sin nature when we are born, it is not something we learn afterwards.

Our actions only express what our nature is. The sin nature is the basis for all sinful habits. We don't just make up our mind to sin or make a mistake and go from being innocent to being sinful. Eph. 2:3 “and were by nature the children of wrath”

Now I have given a scripture references to support what I believe, can you give me some scriptures that states plainly that a child is born innocent?


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Colin Murray

 2013/4/28 13:27Profile
richrock
Member



Joined: 2012/2/27
Posts: 93
UK

 Re:

This is a lengthy rambling on this topic, and I warn that I do express my opinion strongly at one point. I am not, however, going to retaliate on that point - but understand that I do not believe for a second we can reject a sinful nature present in man.

It's a hard teaching to understand that ALL have sinned and murrcolr has shown scripture that we are sinners from birth, which is inherited from Adam (Rom 3:23), we are all deserving of wrath because of that sin (Col 3:6). We who believe are being renewed - progressively sanctified, otherwise, why would Paul write encouraging us by the renewing of our minds (Rom 12:2)? This implies a continuous act, which finally brings me to my scripture:

"This is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you, that God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all. If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth; but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.

My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments. The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him; but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him: the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked."
1 John 1:5 - 2:6.

If we deny ourselves as having sin, we are deceived. If we confess our sins, He (Christ) is faithful. It is important to note that this epistle was written expressly to believers (1John 5:13), so there is no basis to deny the contents of the epistle do not apply to believers. John was presumed to be addressing heresies creeping in to the church at the time through Gnostic teachings.

So, we sin, naturally. Show me a child who behaves perfectly from birth to adulthood, and I'll give up Christianity. At some point we will sin. We will continue to sin. We are called to war against sin.

How can people deny a sinful nature and not see it around them in the news?

That even now, as a believer, I struggle with sin, sinful temptations, these are things I deal with before the Lord. I am sorry if this offends anyone, but I find the idea of rejecting sinful nature in man, implied in scripture explicitly or by general actions, utterly unbelievable and preposterous.

See also; Gen 4:8 - the first murder: one generation from the fall. Ps 51:5 as has been quoted. Ps 58:3, Ecc 7:20, Jer 17:9, Is. 64:6, Rom 5:12.

Paul struggled with ongoing sin : Rom 7:15, 7:20 - what was he fighting against? His own sinful desires, from the context. I recall others quoting Rom 7:24.

Also, a last thought that came to me: Jesus teaches we have to be born again (John 3:3-8). If we are not born sinners, why do we need to be born again? Without a sinful nature in every human being, the gospel is null and void.

 2013/4/28 14:20Profile





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