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 Re:

Quote:
Israel is a nation beloved of God

False!

Only the elected are the beloved, not the nation itself. Romans 11:28 God said through the prophets that a few would be saved, not the totality of the people. Not all Israel as Paul said is of Israel.

Romans 2:28 For he is NOT a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

Romans 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one INWARDLY; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

God does not see any distinction between a Jew or a Gentile.

Those who are circumcised in heart are the real Jews.

I am a Jew because I am circumcised in heart.

 2012/12/2 18:37
staff
Member



Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 2227


 Re:

Hi,
The question asked was:
Why is Israel more important than tbe persecuted church?
The answer is it isnt more important than the church.Their is no such a thing as the persecuted church just the church.This is another makey uppey term that causes a division of the body that god doesnt see.
This term has gained legs promoted wrongly by this website in my opinion but it is an unbiblical term.I think I understand why people use it though.
As to the point behind your question is their an end times role for the nation "Israel"? Answer:1900 years -Balfour declaration-Holocaust-1947 independance-1967 six day war,Jerusalem back in Jewish hands.
What that role is may be disputed by some but it will have a role.
Israel is beloved of God because God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son,that includes Israel,
Yours Staff

 2012/12/2 19:57Profile
jimp
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Joined: 2005/6/18
Posts: 1481


 Re:

great stuff staff,we need to understand that Jesus said that He did not come to do away with the old covenant... the Father is a covenant keeping God and the jews are in the same covenant that was cut centuries before Christ. we have a new and better covenant with better promises and a beeter shedding of blood ...a far greater sacrifice.All of the promises are yea and amen in Jesus.jimp

 2012/12/2 21:30Profile
Yeshuasboy
Member



Joined: 2006/6/10
Posts: 668
Northern Rockies, BC, Canada

 Re: Why is.......

I cannot believe that Israel is more important than "His church" dear brother. Circumcision is of the heart, and a jew is one who is one inwardly. Man looks at the outward appearance, while God looks at the heart. Why some suffer more than others is not for me to judge (and I'm not saying that this is what you are implying dear brother). God's ways are higher than our ways, and His thoughts higher than our thoughts, especially when it comes to His divine providences.


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Richie

 2012/12/2 21:39Profile
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Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4779


 Re: Why is.......

Bearmaster,

Quote:

Why is Israel more important than the persecuted church?



I have to echo what Mary Jane asked: WHO are you talking about? I haven't read anyone here who has made any such proclamation. If you didn't really hear someone say this, then you are presenting what is known as a "straw man."

From the various threads that you have participated in over this issue, I think that most have made it clear that the Church is more important than the physical nation of Israel -- and that physical Jews need to come to Christ (because NO MAN will come to the Father except through the Son).

Quote:

Why do more prayers go up for Israel than for the persecuted believers suffering for Christ?



How can you even ask a question like this? You cannot measure the amount of prayers that are uttered and then compare the prayers that go up for Israel and the persecuted Church.

Quote:

I hear people wail over the attricities perpetrated against Israel. Whenever Jews are killed they are considered as martyrs on a same scale as those who suffer for Christ.



Can you provide a single citation where believers have equated persecution of Jews on the same scale as those who suffer for Christ? Where are you "hearing" this?

Let me be clear: Not every person who is killed -- Jew or Gentile -- are "martyrs." There is a precise definition of the concept "martyr." A martyr is someone who is killed for their religious beliefs. A Jews can be killed because of their race, ethnicity, political views or other reasons. That doesn't make them a "martyr."

Yet, at the same time, it is still a tragedy when someone is killed. The holocaust was a tragic thing because of the immense hatred for Jews by some who felt it was a much-needed "final solution." In truth, they were workers and devices of Satan.

Just because you hear someone declare that the murder of Jews is a terrible thing does not mean that they are equating it to "martyrdom." It is simply tragic for a reason other than a murder because of one's faith.

Quote:

Yes, many weep for Israel. Who weep for the persecuted? I mean the true believers who lay down their lives for Christ.



I think that most believers who are aware of the persecuted Church will pray for or weep over those who lay down their lives for Christ.

Quote:

It has been said that Israel is more important than the persecuted church.



Really? Who said it? Please let me know so we can set those individuals straight!

Seriously: I would really like to know who keeps telling you these things!

To be clear: I haven't heard anyone here at SermonIndex claim that Israel (the physical nation) are "more important" than the persecuted Church.

Now, I would like to bring up something in regard to what some others have spoken about in regard to Israel in this thread.

I mentioned this in one of the other threads about this subject. Romans chapter 11 is quite clear in the distinction between physical Jews and believers who were grafted into the Vine to become spiritual Jews.

The covenant that God made with the physical nation of Israel still stands. Does that mean that they are "saved?" By no means! In fact, Paul says that Israel has been "hardened" until the "fullness of the Gentiles" is complete. At that point, all of Israel will be saved.

Quote:

25 For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery — so that you will not be wise in your own estimation — that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in; 26 and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written,

“The Deliverer will come from Zion,
He will remove ungodliness from Jacob.”
27 “This is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”

28 From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God’s choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers; 29 for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

Romans 11:25-30



Calvinists and those who embrace a "once saved-always saved" philosophy often will quote Romans 11:29 as evidence about how one cannot "lose" their salvation. Yet, in context, this verse pertains to the physical nation of Israel and the covenant that God made with them.

Throughout this chapter (and the other chapters in Romans regarding Israel), Paul quotes unfulfilled prophecies from the Old Covenant and applies them to the physical nation of Israel. In other words, there is still a distinction between Jews and the other people of this world.

Since being a "child of Abraham" is a spiritual thing, it is important for evangelism to be performed among Jews. Why? Jews need to come to the Son. This is why the apostles evangelized Jews...and preached the "Good News" to them. Jews need Jesus.

However, the covenant that God made with the Jews will not go unfulfilled. God will not break His promises. Jesus didn't come to break the old Covenant. Our Lord simply offered us a BETTER covenant -- one that is eternal and not dependent upon race, ethnicity, circumcision or fulfilling the dots and tittles of Mosaic Law. Our covenant is one of grace through faith. And, most importantly, this New Covenant faith must be based solely upon the blood of Christ Jesus, the Son of the Living God.

So, again, the physical nation of Israel is certainly not as important as the persecuted church! Yet, I will say this: I do not weep for the persecuted church as I do the people of this world who might die without Jesus. You see, when a believer dies, the sorrow is for a different reason. They may be passing away through torture or horrible circumstances, but it is light and momentary when compared with what is waiting on the other side of the "glass darkly." Not so for others! We weep for those who die without Christ because their death is eternal.

I am not sure what has motivated the question in the original post. I haven't seen this question at SermonIndex. I would hope that it isn't a "straw man" argument. Perhaps the original poster should clarify just who he is speaking about. Are these individuals that Bearmaster speaks about local to where Bearmaster lives or members of some other online forum? It certainly doesn't seem like the sentiment that has been expressed here.


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Christopher

 2012/12/2 22:18Profile
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Joined: 2008/8/23
Posts: 100


 Re: Why is.......

Bearmaster,
Sometimes it appears that way to me also, but when I bring the question up I am assured that it is not the case.
Just today in church I heard the statement that God loves the Jew and His church. This bothers me. Not because I don't like Jews, but because the message we are telling the Jewish people is that they are more special than the rest of the world because of their blood.

Since our last discussion on this matter I have been reading and thinking about this topic constantly. The church that I attend is very pro-Israel. Just about every message the nation of Israel is brought up, but rarely do I hear about the church around the world especially of those who are suffering for Christ. If nothing else the appearance is that the nation of Israel is more important. I frankly do not get it.

I heard the other day that God has two brides. National Israel and the church. I about fell out of my chair.

If I were a Jew and I heard statements like that I would be utterly confused. My identity would be found in Abraham and does not need to found in Christ.

We are kidding ourselves if we don't think that is the message we are sending to Jewish people.


 2012/12/2 22:58Profile









 Re: Staff

The term "persecuted church" is a description depicting those believers who suffer for Christ in restricted or hostile nations. Those nations lie in primarily the 1040 window. The term is descriptive only. Not divisive.

Bearnaster.

 2012/12/2 23:46
SHMILY
Member



Joined: 2009/12/13
Posts: 203
Northern Idaho

 Re: Why is.......

Brother Bear I would like to share this with you.

About 10 years ago I maintained a bulletin board on the persecuted church at the church I attended. I had gotten permission to use a large 4x8 board in the main hallway.

At first I had a small world map in the center and I would post articles of persecution with strings from the article to the map. I was able to leave the article up 3 to 4 weeks before I needed the space. As time went on I had to remove the map because there were too many articles. Then the time I could leave each up became shorter. When I left that church about 3 years later I could only leave the articles up 1 week. I completely changed the articles on a 4x8 board and the surrounding wall I had to use to get them all in once a week.

After I had been doing the board for a few months my pastor asked why I didn't post any "happy" news. (I had the few that came, like the Eritrean contemporary Christian singer that was released after being held in the shipping crate and tortured until she now has difficulty walking, but there weren't many.) But it wasn't enough apparently. My response was to look at the other "happy" boards in the hall and ask if they had been told their board were too happy and needed balance? I continued to post what was happening.

People would check the board but I think in some ways it was overwhelming for many of them. There wasn't much they felt they could do ~ yes, I know pray but most people want to DO something. They also don't want to think it could happen here.

I would venture to say many on SI do pray for those persecuted. I still do.

I also pray for Israel. The Lord gave me a burden for Israel more than 20 years ago. Long before it was "fashionable". And I have prayed for PM Netanyahu since long before he was the prime minister.

I believe we can't all pray for everything so the Lord gives us a few things to be faithful in. Some are struggling just to pray for their family. Some have a huge burden for the lost. Others the nation. He has given you the persecuted. Let us strive to hear Him say, "Well done" with the task He has given us and not worry about what someone else is given.
REJOICE! =)
Mary

 2012/12/3 1:53Profile
staff
Member



Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 2227


 Re:

Hi Bearmaster,
The term "persecuted church" term has gone way beyond just being a descriptive term.We have sermons,threads and conferences claiming that their is an entity called the persecuted church which their is not.Their are people in the church that are persecuted which is different.The term really means that we have "Christians"=the church and "super Christians"=the persecuted Church.
Why dont we say pray for people that are" persecuted in the church" rather than pray for "the persecuted church" if it is only descriptive and their is no agenda behind it.
People say that our tribulation view does not effect our views on other aspects of the church but it does; rightly or wrongly.If we believe one trib view then we think one way and if we have another view we think another way.
Yours Staff

 2012/12/3 6:08Profile









 Re:

Hi Staff,

Beg to differ brother. In actuality if that which we call tbe church. Consisting of those who have put tbeir faith in Jesus Christ. Were living that crucified life that runs counter to the world. There would be persrcution. There would be one church. It would be tbe persecuted church. I speak of what we perceive as the Western church.

Down through 2000 years of history there has been that faith remnant bride of Christ that has been persecuted by tbe devil. That is the persecuted church. These are the ones that Watchman Nee say live tbe normal Christian life. Those who lay down their lives for Christ.

I would agree there is one church. It is persecuted. Mainly in foreign lands. But now coming to the West. Pastors are run out of their churches and even jailed for sanding for the truth. Believers are fired from tbeir jobs for standing for righteousness. Students expelledfrom degree programs for mentioning the name of Jesus. And it will increase.

Yet many professing believers sit content in tbeir comfortable American Christianity thinking this is New Testament. When suffering is spoken of in tbe world it is in tbe context of Israel. Eritrea or N. Korea just don't figure into their mindset. To them, the persecuted believers in foreign lands, are a fantasy. Read like a Tim LaHaye novel.

In actuality the persecuted in foreign lands understand more of authentic Christianity than we in N. America do. Simply they burn with a passion for Christ and they are willing to die for him. While we in Americs are trying to put Jesus into our comfortable middle class bubbles. Even to bless Israel to avoid economic disaster.

No wonder the N. Korean belueversp are praying we get it right. That beibg to follow Jesus with a sold out heart.

Bearmaster.

 2012/12/3 8:49





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